Dave Hopkin Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 For obvious reasons no names and no pack drill but What does a club do if a long standing members flying ability progressively deteriorates to the point that they are consistently losing control in mid air in at least 50% of their flights resulting in crashes of near misses in the pits? Has anyone had experience of this? What actions did they take? What were the outcomes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mightypeesh Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Not sure what to suggest but I would be concerned about his home life too. Are any of his family known to you? Could maybe be part of a bigger problem. You say progressively - is that over the past year or longer? He must know he has a problem in himself if he keeps putting them in - but likes the company so keeps coming. Difficult one. Good luck, Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extra slim Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Tricky one Dave....I once witnessed an area examiner demonstrating a double roll to a prospective B cert pilot, stick it straight through the pits and destroyed the model and another modellers flight box...his defence was "the pits were in a stupid place"!!... No one person is bigger than the club, and it only takes one incident and everyones enjoyment will suffer. Unfortunately you have to take the bull by the horns in this situation IMO...and dependent on how you broach it and the individual it will go one way or another. You have a duty to the other fee paying members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hopkin Posted October 16, 2015 Author Share Posted October 16, 2015 He has mobility problems which are catered for, and his family know of his issues - So I don't think there is any need for the club to intervene/fere on that front Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Tee Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 I believe the club committee can ask him to re-sit his 'A', might be one route you can take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iqon Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Why not stand with him and ask if he can see it, need help etc........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Fry Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Dave, if he were debutant to this game you wouldn't be asking. The only experience I have had was an experienced good pilot with, what he described, as something gone wrong in his head, a coordination issue. Went back to a trainer, and then a buddy lead, and then he died. But the process, except death, was with his cooperation. Your member/colleague/friend/fellow traveller has to be brought round to cooperation, or exit from the club. There are no other scenarios. Sorry. Edited By Donald Fry on 16/10/2015 16:39:17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John F Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 The thing is the individual is risking injury to everyone around them if nothing is done. This is something that cannot be left to chance. Someone must intervene. My wife works with dementia clients for MK Health Authority and the hard part is getting the individual to realise that they are no longer able to keep doing what they used to enjoy. As they get worse their own understanding erodes to the point where they don't understand or repeatedly forget something important. The reaction to being told that the individual cannot do what they enjoyed for years is, at times, a devastating blow. If the individual is realising that he/she is crashing or causing isues then it might be good to try and get a buddy setup sorted out so that they can, maybe, hone their skills again or at least fly with a partner as safety. If the individual is unable to comprehend that they were at fault or it was them who caused the issue then it is time to call it a day and speak to the family and tell them that the individual is unfit to fly a machine that is capable of injuring or killing someone. It is mentioned, but not what we would call covered, in the BMFA handbook. An individual must be fit to fly. If the club did nothing and an injury did occur, and was investigated, it is entirely possible that the club would be liable as the club did nothing about someone who was unfit to fly. I don't envy you but a buddy Tx system to assess the individuals' abilites might be a good start. Edited By John F on 16/10/2015 16:12:50 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.. Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 We have had this recently at one of my clubs. A quiet chat about the situation and it was suggested that the chap only flies on a buddy lead. A few months on and its all worked out very well, he's actually flying better as his confidence is back and any issues regarding orientation etc are explained instantly rather than in a balsa pile postmortem Personally I think it important to realise that the hobby maybe a chaps last real piece of independence so rather than taking a hard line a bit of thought will probably work best all round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken anderson. Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 suppose its the same as when do you give up driving?... when your co-ordination skills are no longer connecting to your brain,.....no easy answer ..we have a few older members in our club and of course we are all going to join them one day................ how you deal with it(if you can) is anybody's guess..but i imagine some where along the line..its going to end in tear's.......good luck. PS..i dont how asking him to re-sit an A test will solve anything? ken anderson...ne...1........ old flyers dept. Edited By ken anderson. on 16/10/2015 16:38:39 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Fry Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 You are so right Ken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Engine Doctor Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 We have witnessed this in our club. Fortunately the person involved stopped bringing models to the field before we had to stop him but regularly came down for a chat and admitted he had lost his confidence and was very nervous when flying. Hes a young at heart 87 ! One of our club instructors got talking to him and suggested he have a go on the club trainer with a buddy lead set up. The result was brilliant , No A test require just a relaxing couple of hours on a buddy system . He still feels part of the club and although he may not be flying and crashing his own models he can get in the air and join in in safety. We have suggested he looks at slower easier to fly models and he's up for it ! Its sad but you have to bite the bullet and confront the situation or someone may get hurt if left. I hope you manage to sort it without too much upset but your club must come first. Edited By Engine Doctor on 16/10/2015 16:56:58 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John F Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Just stating "Fred you're unfit flying until you get your A test again" is putting someone on the spot and may well have a much bigger impact than the alternative of "come on Fred lets get you on the buddy lead and see where you're going wrong" kind of discussion. At the very least he would be very offended and possibly also provide a large list of folk who he/she would be adamant that also need testing as they have also pranged their aircraft! Lending a helping hand is what the clubs are supposed to do, rather than point a finger and state they are unfit to fly. When you're old and starting to get into bother with your fingers and thumbs on the sticks would you rather be offered help or a kick in the shin? Edited By John F on 16/10/2015 18:06:16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken anderson. Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 well put over JF...TLC and a bit of understanding is what reqd...its ok for us youngins to be running around like farm yard cockerels' ....but in my case i wouldn't be there in the first place had it not been for the older lad's offering their experience to me.......one of them now ask's me to maiden/try out his models...he isnt as sharp as he was ..... but i hold him in utmost respect.......... ken anderson...ne...1 farm yard cockerel's dept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 It's a horrible situation to face but one that any responsible club committee owes to its members, both from the point of view of their members' and/or public safety and the continued enjoyment of their flying field. We had a similar situation - a very senior member whose flying skills had deteriorated over the years, coupled with a reluctance or inability to grasp simple safety rules such as not starting a model at the back of a crowded pits or flying in "dead" airspace. He also had multiple personal injury accidents resulting from poor starting procedures and maintenance - often when he was at the club field on his own and several close calls from losing control of his models including a wayward model cutting through a chain link safety fence and narrowly missing several members before crashing in the pits. At this point, we didn't want to take the official retest route as we had great respect for the contributions that our member had made to the club in the past and as we have an ACE in the club, we took the opportunity to ask him for an informal assessment. With the agreement of the member, he stood with him and took him through some simple A test manouevres and safety related questions. His opinion was that the gentleman in question would not pass an A test for several specific reasons. The typical model flown by this member was a 120 FS powered low wing sportster so it became obvious that something had to be done. We suggested various solutions such as some coaching, flying under supervision or moving to much less demanding models. Unfortunately, despite trying very hard to put these suggestions to him in as constructive and friendly manner as possible, his reaction was to find another club (with a larger and more remote field) where we understand that he appears to strive to fly alone and rarely if ever attends at times that other members are present. Perhaps his standards have improved - the club he went to have not seen fit to question his abilities - and at least one of their committee members was aware of the reasons he decided to leave us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hopkin Posted October 16, 2015 Author Share Posted October 16, 2015 I am reading all the replies, A lot of them I cant respond to because to answer I would have to give at least some details of the person and it would gradually build up a profile on him - so I'm not being rude just careful Percy PM on the way - not sure why I dont have a profile, its ticked as public? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iqon Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 You dont need to name, it happens to all of us at some time in the future....would rather have the TLC than be shown the door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hopkin Posted October 16, 2015 Author Share Posted October 16, 2015 Posted by iqon on 16/10/2015 18:27:32: You dont need to name, it happens to all of us at some time in the future....would rather have the TLC than be shown the door. My sentiments exactly, would much rather find a solution that allows him to fly in safety and doesnt either drive him away or humiliate him.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braddock, VC Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 It's neither a horrible situation nor a difficult one to broach. My take on it, based on experience as both a manager in a multinational co. and as a business owner, is this is best way to kick off the topic I would start as follows, take him to one side and tell him this is a conversation that has to take place, it's been noticed your having more crashes than normal, is there any reason that you can think of why this is happening? One of a number of things will happen (a) he'll say we'll I've noticed blah blah etc. OR (b) he'll blow his top and start saying stupid things etc. This is the easier of the two to deal with as your adrenaline level will have increased and you can, provided you've done the research beforehand with the committee, threaten all sorts unless he cools down and discusses it rationally. There is also (c) where he point blank ignores what you are saying, but this is straightforward to deal with and no doubt you have clauses in your club's' constitution to sanction his flying, after all if he refuses to discuss it then he is being unreasonable. If scenario (b) works it then you have the same problem as you did at the end of scenario (a) you have to listen to and judge if you feel competent to call the shots or refer the debate to committee. Breaking it down like this is the key and I hope it's been of some help. It served me well through all sorts of confrontational issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Fry Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Dave be patient, we al fall off the perch, when it happens, it would be nice to have a friend catch me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hopkin Posted October 16, 2015 Author Share Posted October 16, 2015 Posted by Donald Fry on 16/10/2015 19:56:09: Dave be patient, we al fall off the perch, when it happens, it would be nice to have a friend catch me. Those are my sentiments - yes as a committee we could "ground" him I guess, but that would be a harsh and cruel thing to do to a very long standing member, as its a club rather than a commercial environment I am looking for a way to be very very gentle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaunie Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 We have a club member who no longer flies, It was a choice he made of his own accord as far as I'm aware. The important thing is he is still quite an active member of the club, frequently up the field to chat with his friends and watch them fly, he also goes to all the social events. The important point is that the member does not need to fly to be a valued and useful member of the club. I think many people would feel they were being chucked out of the club if they were told their flying is not up to scratch any more, they need to be reassured that this is not the case and could not be further from the truth. All this of course is based on any re-training being unsuccessful. Shaunie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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