Drones /drones /drones??

[John F]

Posted by Area 51 on 12/01/2016 12:39:14:

Something on electronics would be nice, build your own lighting system etc!

Lights operated with flap deployment, rotating beacons.. bit to go at there..

Whilst the craze of drones has been accepted, by some, not all want to see it month in month out.. I appreciate the challenge of providing content - but that is why salaries are drawn and we subscribed or buy the mag.. we expect to see content we want to see..

You don't want to see multi rotor articles month in month out? So if there is on article each month, which is proportionately overshadowed by fixed wing pages (8 MR pages Vs 73 fixed wing), that is too many for you? I don't think you're being realistic nor fair.

"We expect to see content we want to see"? How do they know what you want to see?

Sure there will be articles you're not interested in, that much is evident, but don't forget; you might not want to see a certain article but if the majority might.

As Pete B says, if you want to read about something write it instead and submit an article or find an expert and get them to write an article. They can't publish what they know the majority want to see, only what the majority might want to see.

[Dai Fledermaus]

These are my last words on the subject, because we need to agree to disagree at the end of the day and no one is going to take note of my " narrow minded prejudice" anyway

However, in case you think my concerns over the future legislation controlling the use of MR's is overstated, then this is what we should be aware of LINK

As we know, any Radio controlled craft, fixed wing or otherwise can be turned into a flying bomb and it doesn't matter if the threat is real or imagined, legislators need little excuse to erode our freedoms. Those of us who fly from Club sites probably need not concern themselves too much, but the people who fly in unregulated spaces like parks or worse still sensitive areas like those near Airports or Government establishments, might find their wings clipped big time.

MR's are so widely available now anyone without any thought can buy one and rush out and fly it wherever they can with no thought for anyone else or the wider implications of what they're doing. Sooner rather than later, I fear, Government will react to this.

[ASH.]

Posted by Dai Fledermaus on 12/01/2016 14:46:41:

These are my last words on the subject, because we need to agree to disagree at the end of the day and no one is going to take note of my " narrow minded prejudice" anyway

However, in case you think my concerns over the future legislation controlling the use of MR's is overstated, then this is what we should be aware of LINK

As we know, any Radio controlled craft, fixed wing or otherwise can be turned into a flying bomb and it doesn't matter if the threat is real or imagined, legislators need little excuse to erode our freedoms. Those of us who fly from Club sites probably need not concern themselves too much, but the people who fly in unregulated spaces like parks or worse still sensitive areas like those near Airports or Government establishments, might find their wings clipped big time.

MR's are so widely available now anyone without any thought can buy one and rush out and fly it wherever they can with no thought for anyone else or the wider implications of what they're doing. Sooner rather than later, I fear, Government will react to this.

Hear hear! And we are told to embrace this as it's aeromodelling!

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

ah - I wondered how long it would be before we saw this "old favourite" trooped out - yet again. Yes, of course MRs are responsible for terrorism now. What next I wonder? The breakdown of family life? The decline in reading standards, the homeless problem,....

BEB

[ASH.]

Yes, it may be an old chestnut but MR's do put model flying at risk, no matter how small that risk. That is undeniable. And yet we must welcome it in the name of progress. Progress to a hobby I have great passion for.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Yes but what constitutes the risk is automomous flight not the MR! Autonomous flight can be achieved just as easy with fixed wing as it can be with an MR. In fact having done both I'd say its actually easier with fixed wing because it can be hand launched - MRs do not generally react well to auto-take offs, they often turn over!

And it should be recognised that achieving reliable autonomous flight is not nearly as easy as some seem to think. If you believe you can take a drone out of a box, press a few buttons on a computer and the thing will "do your will" - I suggest you think again! It ain't that simple - specially with larger aircraft that could carry a worthwhile payload.

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 12/01/2016 15:59:37

[GONZO]

Autonomous fixed wing flight, over the counter at a toy shop near you(very soon), with a 14 megapixel FPV camera

Do a Google search for the PARROT DISCO.

[John F]

Posted by Dai Fledermaus on 12/01/2016 14:46:41:

MR's are so widely available now anyone without any thought can buy one and rush out and fly it wherever they can with no thought for anyone else or the wider implications of what they're doing. Sooner rather than later, I fear, Government will react to this.

 

But . . . so are fixed wing and rotary model aircraft widely available!! Any of the aircraft that we, the hobbyists, fly can be turned into a bomb or be used to deliver a payload. Any of them, as you quite rightly state, so why is it turned into a multi rotor terrorist argument again?

Everything that folk link to are just articles based on fear of what might happen in the future.

"The Government" is already reacting to this threat. No, sorry I will correct that - the Security Services are already reacting to this threat. What you really mean is that you fear the Government will stop the hobby of model flying, or regulate it, somehow.

The security services already know the threat from model aircraft, be it from terrorists or from joe public flying over a football stadium. Interestingly the threat from terrorists using model aircraft has been known for a few years now so the "thinktank" is woefully behind the times!

It is widely known that it is a tool that can be perverted. But, then again, so can cars. Any car can be turned into a bomb. Any car. And it has happened many, many times and wil continue to do so for decades to come.

I, personally, am a bit tired of the doom and gloom and the naysayers who predict our hobby will become extinct. It won't.

Can we not just calm down?

Edited By John F on 12/01/2016 20:43:21

[Levanter]

John. Another sensible post. Everyone has access to new technologies including the baddies who may well be advanced on the curve and so are the security services. For every new measure there has to be a countermeasure. 30 years ago in Northern Ireland, to combat car bombs there were thousand of concrete bollards around possible targets including virtually all the pubs.

I don't know Myron, the original poster, but I don't imagine for one moment that he expected such a heated reaction to his original post. Personally I would like to be encouraged by all the new technologies and if it flies it has interest for me even if it takes second place to something that has grabbed my attention for the moment.

I don't know anything about publishing but I would think there must be some sort of magic figure that editors aim for in customer satisfaction. I happily buy other magazines like sailing, GA, occasional impulse publications because of a headline despite knowing very well that there will much, maybe most of the magazine that doesn't interest me much. Strange though, if I keep the magazine for 6 months or maybe a year I will go back to it and devour every single word. It's funny and I am sure I am not alone but some of the most interesting things I have read are columns on an old newspaper that I am about to light a fire with. I am willing to bet that the RCM&E rates very highly on the satisfaction scale and we are very lucky. Keep it up please David and Co!

I also wonder if there was a drift back towards the original content it would bring howls of indignation. Probably yes but I reckon that would fade quite quickly as people find rekindled or new interests and adaptions.

Aero modelling has to fit into the real world, not the other way around. If it does it will thrive. I can't wait.

[Don Fry]

I second the request for calm. When I was a boy chemist I worked in explosive research. The Vietnam, and N Ireland conflicts were still running, and for reasons known to God, we received technical papers of improvised devices. I was struck, what terrible things a clever mind, with a bit of sideways thinking, could bodge together. This is a forum full of sideways thinking bodgers. We should remain silent on any perversions of our hobby. Bottom line is we don't know who is looking on this public forum. And MODS, in my view this thread wanders towards dangerous waters.

[Pete B]

I'm pretty sure nothing yet mentioned on this thread is going to affect or influence the terrorist threat in any way, Donald - if it's been mentioned, you can be sure they've already thought of it - and probably dismissed as impractical, or there's a more effective means of carrying out whatever they intend to do.

As others have said, I'm certain that those in the security field will be well up to speed in developments....

Pete

[AVC]

Posted by John F on 12/01/2016 20:42:56:

Can we not just calm down?

Edited By John F on 12/01/2016 20:43:21

I don't change any single comma of what I've written in this post, but I fully agree with this request for calm. I think we are taking this a bit out of proportion, although it's true that there are some "brainless" out there buying MR's without any sense (and interest) of safety and security. But let's stop shoting our feet and let's try to keep the discussion within sensible boundaries

[ASH.]

"This is a forum full of sideways thinking bodgers." - shouldn't that read codgers!

Our days are numbered.. the end is nigh!

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by John F on 12/01/2016 20:42:56:

Posted by Dai Fledermaus on 12/01/2016 14:46:41:

MR's are so widely available now anyone without any thought can buy one and rush out and fly it wherever they can with no thought for anyone else or the wider implications of what they're doing. Sooner rather than later, I fear, Government will react to this.

But . . . so are fixed wing and rotary model aircraft widely available!! Any of the aircraft that we, the hobbyists, fly can be turned into a bomb or be used to deliver a payload. Any of them, as you quite rightly state, so why is it turned into a multi rotor terrorist argument again?

Everything that folk link to are just articles based on fear of what might happen in the future.

"The Government" is already reacting to this threat. No, sorry I will correct that - the Security Services are already reacting to this threat. What you really mean is that you fear the Government will stop the hobby of model flying, or regulate it, somehow.

The security services already know the threat from model aircraft, be it from terrorists or from joe public flying over a football stadium. Interestingly the threat from terrorists using model aircraft has been known for a few years now so the "thinktank" is woefully behind the times!

It is widely known that it is a tool that can be perverted. But, then again, so can cars. Any car can be turned into a bomb. Any car. And it has happened many, many times and wil continue to do so for decades to come.

I, personally, am a bit tired of the doom and gloom and the naysayers who predict our hobby will become extinct. It won't.

Can we not just calm down?

Edited By John F on 12/01/2016 20:43:21

Great post - totally agree. I get very depressed that very single thread on MRs on this forum sooner or later reaches this point. Some seem to be unable to discuss multi-rotors without rising this issue - seeming blind to the fact that the same could said of fixed wing, helicopters, cars, the postal system,...

I feel its about time we moved on from this endless repetition of a single issue view of MRs.

BEB

[trebor]

Sorry drone on but this popped up this morning I had to

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgWlm5zrY4w&list=TLIr-FQIR3QbgxMzAxMjAxNg

Edited By trebor on 13/01/2016 08:34:26

[Peter Christy]

The problem with "drones", as I see it, is that whilst conventional model aircraft, as contributors to this forum would recognise them, require a degree of skill to pilot, "drones", be they rotary or fixed wing, do not.

Any idiot can buy an RTF drone from Maplins or wherever, and have it successfully airborne within 10 minutes of leaving the shop. You only have to look at youtube to see that!

Even "heavy-duty" multicopters, capable of being a security threat, can be assembled and operated with little knowledge or skill being required.

Previously, it has been that filter of the skill needed to successfully operate an R/C model that has, for the most part, kept them out of the hands of the idiots. Now that filter has been removed. And in the eyes of the public, RC models and drones are all just "toy aeroplanes".

Fortunately, the CAA seem to be on-side with us. Certainly the CAA reps who visited the Nationals a couple of years ago asked all the right questions when they visited the flight-line that I was attending. Furthermore, they seemed impressed and reassured by the answers they got.

However, even that may not be enough to protect us if there is a tidal wave of public outrage following a major incident where a drone is involved. We really do need to do more to publicise the difference between responsibly operated models, and the loony "Lets buzz Buckingham Palace" - or worse - brigade.

And *that* is down to each and every one of us - not just the BMFA.

--

Pete

[Cabbage Man]

Pete,

Well said!!

[ted hughes]

This thread is nonsensical.

What do you want to do, start a campaign to stop drones being sold?

Stop remote-piloted aircraft being sold?

Stop cars being sold because they are used in car bombs?

Stop mobile phones being sold because they trigger IEDs?

Stop children being born because they can grow into soldiers?

Anything can be subververted to evil ends,anything, and we should not trouble ourselves worrying about what might be.

[Area 51]

Ted, I agree.. the whole essence appears to be the need to control and improve awareness of "new" drone owners - especially any equipment bought outside of the established circles we are used too.. i.e. model mags/shops that usually carry enough detial about operating safely..

The problem faced as I see it, is trying to deal with the muppets who buy one/are given one and think its a quick case of charge and get into the park nearest to home and film the neighbours cat running up trees away from the rising flood water..

I saw it first hand with a neighbour.. it happened just like this.. £700 on a drone, charged, in the park and cruising here and there fine.. then decided to "do a bit more with it"..

I never saw that first/last flight.. just the bits as he came back approx 20mins after going out of the door..

No interest in repairing it.. he is an architect, has seen YT videos and thought it would be cool for his business to do the same and video some of their sites/properties for sale..

No interest whatsoever in a spot of training/rules/education when I saw him with an arm full of broken plastic bits..

Now this chap knows I have large warbirds/gliders/turbines/indoor and park flyers.. and could have got some info and guidance over the fence.. so to speak..

But he used his company credit card to buy, wanted to use it there and then, really genuinely thought its easy peasey...

He has not intension of rebuilding the bits or reestablishing his ideas..

Where he flew he was too close to trees/homes/commercial property and others were in the same space with dogs and a football..

In my view, these are the people along with those of who have negative plans for the use of the drone are the ones that need stopping/targetting..

The media loves a bad story, autonomous vehicles that can be bought anywhere are the medias latest daily mantra... however it is our hobby they may ruin.

The interweb is full of drone videos flying over neighbours gardens, workplaces or towns - all of which can be deemed as illegal. The evidence is there already.. never mind the guy sentenced for flying over the Barrow nuclear plant etc. Why would you want to fly out of line of sight? With the exception of commercial operations.

Awareness and engagement are the solution; any importer to the UK should include rules with the sale of each item and a clear instruction that insurance is needed via a representative body.. the BMFA.. or maybe not as maybe we do not need all tarring with the same brush.

At the sake of droning on, this a public forum and the media can take pages from it to pad out a story.. as this is all any "journo" seems to do these days..

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Peter Christy on 13/01/2016 09:20:07:

Even "heavy-duty" multicopters, capable of being a security threat, can be assembled and operated with little knowledge or skill being required.

This statement is untrue.

I speak from considerable experience of such devices having built and commercially operated over 15 of them now and amassed in excess of 300hours flying on them.

BEB

[Phil Brooks]

I don't think we need worry about the CAA, it's the politicians that concern me. The argument that "cars etc. can be used to deliver bombs" doesn't hold water. The economy depends upon motor transport, and Joe Public would never vote for anyone who tried to ban them, but a total ban on modelflying would not upset 99.9% of the population, especially if the spin doctors presented it as "A necessary step in the fight against terrorism". Don't forget it only took one evil minded individual in Hungerford in 1987 to see pistol clubs all over the country, with hundreds of responsible, law abiding members, closed down summarily, just so that the politicians could say that they had "done something".

[Area 51]

Agreed Phil.. problem with Joe Public is that he/she doesnt bother to vote anymore.. hence the chaos we live in with politians who think media point scoring and put downs is running the country. As you rightly say they would never vote for a ban on motor vehicles... but the public wouldnt be given a vote on it.. that is the way things are run now.

Dismissing the flea that is annoying the government would be very easy, as you say 99.9% of the population wouldnt even bat an eyelid.. the banning of pistols is good example.

The issue here is not the commercial operation of drones with 300hrs building etc. It is the ability of some numpty to get a hold of one and cause chaos.. "a spectacular event" as they like to class it.. only takes one..

The regulatory authorities will protect their own. My concern, from the output, of the BMFA is that they are not on top of promoting our needs or aims..

The CAA will do so over licensed operatives end of - I am hoping against hope the "grandfather rights" of model flying and the hobbies relationship with the CAA will include all of us within these grandfather rights as the discussion progresses.

The update on the BMFA news page about easa / drones is showing under 1500 page view.. some of these are the same person more than once! me as an example..

So from this, is it possible to gauge the level of interest in the topic from BFMA members. Perhaps is it that BMFA members dont bother at all to read the website or about this topic or anything about the hobby in general?

Perhaps it is just the few regulars on here that tweet on the topic who are concerned about the problems caused by the media coverage "drones"

[ken anderson.]

just to add a bit more flavour to the Pot..............this is the worst case scenario/end of the world etc.....we're doomed i hear you say...... ......

ken anderson...ne....1 world events reporting dept.

[John F]

Posted by Area 51 on 13/01/2016 12:17:37:

Dismissing the flea that is annoying the government would be very easy, as you say 99.9% of the population wouldnt even bat an eyelid.. the banning of pistols is good example.

It is hardly a good example. They don't just ban stuff willy nilly. Handguns are, for several reasons, dangerous and hard to spot. A rifle is easier to account for. Irrespective . . .

This scaremongering is just chinese whispers and fear based on a ridiculous notion of "the Government" will do x, y and z. Sorry but that is ill informed guesswork and hype. Just might as well chuck some chicken bones on a dustbin lid and read them for the good that these guesses are.

You said "The update on the BMFA news page about easa / drones is showing under 1500 page view.. some of these are the same person more than once! me as an example.."

What are the BMFA supposed to do in order to get the message across?  They publish the stuff but it is up to us, the responsible people, to keep ourselves informed. Isn't it?

Posted by Phil Brooks on 13/01/2016 11:40:56:

I. Don't forget it only took one evil minded individual in Hungerford in 1987 to see pistol clubs all over the country, with hundreds of responsible, law abiding members, closed down summarily, just so that the politicians could say that they had "done something".

For info Phil, it was Lord Cullen's enquiry after the Dunblane massacre which made the changes to gun laws, not Hungerford. That was some 9 years earlier.

Edited By John F on 13/01/2016 16:16:49

[David Ashby - Moderator]

Posted by Dai Fledermaus on 08/01/2016 18:14:58:

Posted by Myron Beaumont on 08/01/2016 15:50:24:

More and more concentration on drones/cameras in our mag .Not for me !

Call me old fashioned if you like .

Couldn't have said it better Myron. RCM&E is becoming less and less interesting because of it's focus on Drones. I can see restrictions on their use in the near future and I don't our hobby tarred with the same brush.

Ok, chaps I'm tierd of reading such fiction so we'll lock up this thread.

A thoroughly miserable thread of course, I can't imagine that a good number who've commented here derive any enjoyment from model flying, only by being bad tempered and uninformed on forums it seems.

Anyway, perhaps I can reassure those who are easily misled that RCM&E will continue to provide a balanced spread of features and reviews for many years to come. The odd spike in one direction or another is something that just happens every now and then.

The editorial page count has increased since I've taken the chair, as has the number of engine reviews.

Get out, have fun and fly, that's what the hobby really is all about.