Second Hand IC engines

[Tony H]

Hi All,

 

It seems to me that IC engines second hand value has decreased recently due to how popular electric has become. 

 

I can't see how people new to the hobby could be drawn to IC now as there are very very few cheap new engines only OS and Saito mainly.

 

Do you think the second hand value of IC engines has significantly dropped?

[Jon H]

I keep an eye on laser prices on ebay. Mostly as i cant believe what folk will pay for the utter junk i often see on there. Sellers are also very creative with their prices! OS prices seem lower, especially for 2 strokes. 

 

I also saw a magnum 5 cylinder radial go for nearly 800 last week. I would not have paid 800 for it new with a warranty let alone an old one from ebay. 

 

As for newcomers looking at i/c i dont think cost is a factor. Model type is more of a driving factor these days with a drift towards either small foamy models, or massive petrol models. The classic club model in the middle with with 40-60 2 stroke has sort of been forgotten. 

 

Assuming you wanted something for a 90 4 stroke say, would electric be cheaper at that size? Not sure, but i dont fly my electric heli much as 6s 3200 batteries are just too expensive. Especially when the die after about 10 flights. Useless. 

[Nigel R]

1 hour ago, Tony H said:

It seems to me that IC engines second hand value has decreased recently due to how popular electric has become. 

 

Being a somewhat avid watcher of Ebay (dangerous habit) I would say exactly the opposite, but it does depend on what exact engine you are buying and does depend on what you mean by 'recently'. There is a lot of junk on there. Buyer beware! When ASP shut shop (3 years ago?) the cheap new glow motor supply dried up and the second hand market went up commensurately. Three years back an OS 70 or 90 FS was selling for buttons, now, a decent one will go for £150 or so.

 

Force motors seem to be filling the cheap motor gap in 46 / 52 size. Maybe they will start doing OS clone four strokes, too.

 

I agree with Jon on the club size models. Shame really, 40 and 60 class stuff is big enough to fly really well, and small enough to avoid lots of expense and hassle. I guess there is more profit in quick and easy blow moulded ARTF foamies, or big expensive fancy toys with big expensive fancy radio gear and big expensive motors for guys with big expensive wallets.

[Don Fry]

Some are stupid cheap, some are not. As Jon says, Lasers do good money, as in what they sell for, rather than the dreamer hoping to attract an idiot. 
But, an ASP 120 2 stroke, decent looking motor, £32, e bay this week. That less that £10 a horse. And nowadays we see more owners who don’t identify what they have. I have a very decent OS 120 Mk3 Surpass pumper. With box, instructions, all the tools, that’s £94 quid, delivered from the UK to France. Poor listing, lost in all the old scrap on the listings.

The question you ask, is illogical. If you can’t work a IC motor, they are a sweet mystery. Why go there when an electric motor is so simple. But on this forum, yesterday, on an exploding UBEC, or some such, which took out a load of very expensive electronics, I was struggling to remember the physics. I have a basic knowledge of the electric side, I would not dream of buying a small Ic anything, but beyond about 750 to 1000 watts, a motor that needs starting is the way forward.

A Laser 75 I bought for little, decades ago, lawn planted frequently, still starts first flick, and trundles about the sky. Horses for courses. Hard metal, important delicate bits at the back of the motor.

[Nigel R]

That 120 fs was a lucky buy don. I sold mine for 250 IIRC, on the back of finding a 110 alpha for around half that. 

 

 You have to watch the site like a hawk to find the bargains.  

[Dave Brooks]

There is still the odd bargain to be had on eBay but they are few and far between. Some really lucky buys there. The best I have managed, and not for want of trying, was a TT 91 fs for £75. I would agree that since ASP stopped production second hand four stroke glows seem to have maintained or even gone up in value. The small capacity four strokes, .20 and .30 size seem to be particularly in demand. Two strokes are not so bad. Best buys often seem to be airframes with engines as somehow the price doesn't seem  to reflect the sum of the component parts.

 

For a newcomer, glow just isn't as accessible as a plug and play electric setup which is just a fact of life. Just have to hope that they stick with it long enough to see the light! ?

 

[Robin Colbourne]

The really noticeable thing for me is how the older, pre-1960 engines have dropped in price.  The generation to whom they meant something are dying off, so old spark ignition engines can be had for a fraction of what they used to go for.
A well described glow in clean condition can still command a good price, if it is box with instructions, or even just clearly well cared for.  F3A aerobatic engines and OS FSRs are clearly still in demand.
Small diesels, if complete and in running condition, command good money, but that is be because the sort of people who fly free flight would expect to have a gaggle of models to fly at one time.

Despite the interest on here in 'Small Model Association' type models, the engines for them, eg. OS10FP, Enya 09, SC/ASP12 etc. can still be had for peanuts, well under £30, in good condition.

Anything with ball bearings, you more or less have to factor in replacing them, so that puts people off. The same with any of the OSs with potentially peeling liners.  Face to face sales are clearly different, as the engine can be handled and inspected by a knowledgeable buyer.
 

This listing does surprise me though. OS40 FP

Does someone really plan to pay over fifty quid for a relatively common 'cooking engine'?   It doesn't even have the silencer extension.   My gut feeling is that it has been shill bid up, in the hope that a punter will come along.

[Nigel R]

Price for the FP sounds about right. It's a later abn type with baffled silencer and doesn't need the extension. What probably drives the bidding here is that it Looks low run time, from the clean exhaust port.

 

The potential liner problems with certain os engine does not appear to put people off. I have been someway burned on that one.

 

Agreed, sub 40 size glow is cheap now.

 

Oddities and rarities excepted. An OS wankel could fund a nice holiday by itself.  

[SIMON CRAGG]

14 hours ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

I keep an eye on laser prices on ebay. Mostly as i cant believe what folk will pay for the utter junk i often see on there. Sellers are also very creative with their prices! OS prices seem lower, especially for 2 strokes. 

 

I also saw a magnum 5 cylinder radial go for nearly 800 last week. I would not have paid 800 for it new with a warranty let alone an old one from ebay. 

 

As for newcomers looking at i/c i dont think cost is a factor. Model type is more of a driving factor these days with a drift towards either small foamy models, or massive petrol models. The classic club model in the middle with with 40-60 2 stroke has sort of been forgotten. 

 

Assuming you wanted something for a 90 4 stroke say, would electric be cheaper at that size? Not sure, but i dont fly my electric heli much as 6s 3200 batteries are just too expensive. Especially when the die after about 10 flights. Useless. 

If your 6s packs are only lasting 10 flights, you need to sort out your battery management fella!

 

We have been flying a variety of fast EDF jets for the last two years, batteries still fine.

 

If you think the packs are to expensive try China Hobby Line.

[Graeme White]

I started flying couple years ago and only fly nitro. I find electric more expensive and batteries are finicky with storage charging etc. Plus I like the tinkering side of things as well as flying. I think if I flew electric it would be too easy? If that makes sense? Nothing other than flying. Plus, bimbling around in the sky for 20 mins with my 40 trainer watching people take off and land their models after 5 mins flying due to batteries running low, seems a bit short to me.

 

I like ebay, but I have to disagree with pricing, even last 2 years I've noticed price rise, gutted I didn't stock up on asp/sc when I first started before they closed down.

[Tony H]

1 hour ago, Graeme White said:

I started flying couple years ago and only fly nitro. I find electric more expensive and batteries are finicky with storage charging etc. Plus I like the tinkering side of things as well as flying. I think if I flew electric it would be too easy? If that makes sense? Nothing other than flying. Plus, bimbling around in the sky for 20 mins with my 40 trainer watching people take off and land their models after 5 mins flying due to batteries running low, seems a bit short to me.

 

I like ebay, but I have to disagree with pricing, even last 2 years I've noticed price rise, gutted I didn't stock up on asp/sc when I first started before they closed down.

I agree I much prefer nitro, I just wish it didn't coat my planes in oil. I have a couple of planes that get almost no oil on them but most have it dripping over the wings.

[J D 8]

 The Chinese took the market with cheaper engines  in the two thousands, finishing off most the other remaining western and eastern makers and then found they could make more money making other things and pulled out of engine making leaving a gap in the market that others it seems do not think it is worth filling.

    This is happening with many other products with today's global trading system.

 

[Jon H]

Regarding my battery management...Always balanced, charged at under 1c as its all my 50watt charger can manage, average current draw of 27amps on a battery rated for 65 continuous, never drop the voltage below safe limits...After 10 flights, starts to get soft and puffy when warm. Tried cheap hobbyking, flightpower, thunder power. Just end up throwing good money after bad so i gave up. Never had such a major issue with 3s batteries, but they were all done with less than 50 cycles. I might abandon the T-Rex 500 and just buy a hirobo shuttle with a 30 2stroke in it. It would scratch my heli itch and while not as capable as the 500, im no 3d pilot anyway so thats just fine ?

 

Tony, fuel choice makes a big difference here. Globs of castor and an oil content over 15% will make a mess. Look for full synthetic fuel, not more than 5% nitro and 15% oil. Tune for max performance (not slobbering rich for no reason) and you should see a significant improvement in the mess. 

 

Nigel, rarities are always on my horizon. I have picked up a few nice things (my OS Pegasus 4 cylinders, OS 300 twin, Enya VT240) but there are some things missing. I would love an OS 300 radial and the OS300 inline as well. The snag is, both of those go for insane money now and they are not worth that much to me. Same with the enya 240. I have seen them at £1500 and its just not worth that much to me. Maybe it is to a collector, but i plan to use it. No sense in leaving an engine in a case, it needs to be used and flown in my view. With that in mind, i look at the price of a laser equivalent and that is what i am prepared to pay as my model will go just as well in either case. 

 

But, for real crazy pricing Laser Diesels take some beating. Last 2 laser 80 diesels i saw on ebay went for about £900 a piece on average. Crazy

[Don Fry]

Jon, bringing a happy note to the discussion, you will still be flying when we fall off our perches. I assure you my widow won’t worry about how little my junk goes for. She’s off to the Audi TT dealer, after buying a short skirt to display car exiting skills.

[Jon H]

4 minutes ago, Don Fry said:

Jon, bringing a happy note to the discussion, you will still be flying when we fall off our perches. I assure you my widow won’t worry about how little my junk goes for. She’s off to the Audi TT dealer, after buying a short skirt to display car exiting skills.

 

Ha! Maybe so. 

 

Although you do raise one point. All these high priced engines being hoarded by collectors, how are they going to fare when said collectors go to the great airfield in the sky? I am pretty certain Mrs collector will not have a spread sheet detailing the expected value of each lump of metal cluttering up the house and will just want shot of them. Also, by that time, how many will want a 1980's - 90's Enya VT240 or OS 5 cylinder radial? Sure its new in box and looks awesome, but it could be 50 years old by then with no spares support. How attractive would that be to a flyer? and also, who would be collecting engines if all they do is fly electric? For me, this could be a happy time buying up all the engines i ever wanted to own at a good price, but i dont know how the market will go. 

[Robin Colbourne]

1 hour ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

But, for real crazy pricing Laser Diesels take some beating. Last 2 laser 80 diesels i saw on ebay went for about £900 a piece on average. Crazy

Jon, Have you ever thought of making a batch of Laser diesels on the quiet, then drip feeding them onto the market? ??

[Engine Doctor]

The last bargain I bought from eBay was a Frog 80 diesel. Put a bid up to £20 on it and went flying and totally forgot about it . That evening I won it for £18 ! . 

Totally agree with John though as many of the collector / dealers I knew have " Gone Flying Forever".

Most of us only collect things for nostalgic reasons and the number of IC collector/ users is diminishing all the time. This trait of diminish values of certain items can also be seen with household antiques and the popular saying now is " yesterday's antique" 

I should sell some of my engines but like many I enjoy owning them . Hopefully my son's will get what they can for them when my turn to GFF comes around.

What will the next generation of flyers collect ? Rare lipo batteries, Nicads and NiMh packs? h

The difference between engines and electric power is that engines do have a mechanical presence and can be repaired etc whereas a electric motor have none, they just turn until the magic smoke comes out then get thrown out.

At the end of the day it's a hobby to be enjoyed, shared and not taken too seriously while we can still enjoy the airspace.

Edited April 23, 2021 by Engine Doctor

[Jon H]

6 minutes ago, Robin Colbourne said:

Jon, Have you ever thought of making a batch of Laser diesels on the quiet, then drip feeding them onto the market? ??

 

Yeaaa, but its a bit dishonest. I sold them new for around £300 so trying to con people by putting it up for 900 doesn't sit right with me. I know there is the argument that an auction price is set by the buyer, but still. If i am going to make more, i might as well just sell them on the website like everything else.  

[Jon H]

1 minute ago, Engine Doctor said:

 

What will the next generation of flyers collect ? Rare lipo batteries, Nicads and NiMh packs? 

 

 

Too true! I cant imagine people scrambling to pick up a 'vintage' durafly model in years to come. 

 

Although, does that not reflect badly on the world today? Without getting too philosophical, many people no longer place a value on keeping things. Its all throw away and then buy the new hotness that just released. We see the same with our models and i have seen many who ditch a model after a season because they have got the t shirt so to speak. The model in my avatar is 11 years old now and when i have mentioned this in the past i am often met with 'wow, arent you bored with it? i would have thrown it away and got something new by now' as an answer. Just because the model is old why should it be less entertaining than the day i bought it? In fact it means more to me now than it did then as its now got a history of its own. I dont see why i would throw it away when it still works and does all the things i need it to.  

 

Will this throw away culture mean nothing is collected?

[Dave Brooks]

3 hours ago, Graeme White said:

Plus I like the tinkering side of things as well as flying. I think if I flew electric it would be too easy? If that makes sense? 

I know exactly what you mean Graeme. I just don't get the same sense of satisfaction from electric power. Even brand new engines feel a bit like cheating. The joy for me is in nurturing and using the otherwise forgotten and unloved works of engineering found languishing in drawers and boxes. eBay is good for fuelling that habit!

[Nigel R]

47 minutes ago, Dave Brooks said:

eBay is good for fuelling that habit!

 

I find eBay is a liability!

[Nigel R]

2 hours ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

I would love an OS 300 radial and the OS300 inline as well. The snag is, both of those go for insane money now and they are not worth that much to me. Same with the enya 240. I have seen them at £1500 and its just not worth that much to me. Maybe it is to a collector, but i plan to use it. No sense in leaving an engine in a case, it needs to be used and flown in my view. With that in mind, i look at the price of a laser equivalent and that is what i am prepared to pay as my model will go just as well in either case. 

 

You'd think there would be someone out there with access to Laser components that could glue five 70 top ends on to a radial crankcase... Hmm... ?

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I have a recollection that somebody did just that - Laser supplied the top end components to them.  Do you recall any details Jon or was it before your time?  It would be interesting to know how that turned out.

[Nigel R]

1 hour ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

Although, does that not reflect badly on the world today? Without getting too philosophical, many people no longer place a value on keeping things. Its all throw away and then buy the new hotness that just released. We see the same with our models and i have seen many who ditch a model after a season because they have got the t shirt so to speak. The model in my avatar is 11 years old now and when i have mentioned this in the past i am often met with 'wow, arent you bored with it? i would have thrown it away and got something new by now' as an answer. Just because the model is old why should it be less entertaining than the day i bought it? In fact it means more to me now than it did then as its now got a history of its own.

 

Consumer society is a whole different argument... but yes, I think the great general public don't instinctively want to keep things full stop, most folk are raised on a cycle of buy, use, throw away, buy another. Fixing the thing for re-use isn't on the radar. Most people think the answer to reducing their waste is to throw things away in a bin marked 'recycling'. As opposed to (a) not buying junk in the first place or (b) fixing things when they break. Something has to be very expensive (house, car) to be fixed and kept, and even then it is 'pay someone else' to do it, rather than applying themselves to the problem.

 

We're drifting way off topic, sorry!

[Jon H]

Dave - Im with you on that one. I was flying the totally ruined OS40 4 stroke i rustored last year (see forum thread somewhere) and was happy as a pig in..err, a field. The engine was scrap, and many parts still are, but through a little work and some donated parts its now useful again. My OS FF240 was a rustoration, as was/is the ongoing project of making my magnum 240v actually work properly. Its all been very interesting. 

 

Laser radial. Yep, a few of them were made using 5x 150 bores/heads and i think 5x 180 bores/heads. Monster power, but pretty thirsty on the glow fuel. I would love to offer a radial....sigh. Perhaps i should just take my plans to a machine shop and make it myself!

 

Consumer culture, yea off topic a bit but it is relevant in the sense that you cannot consume your way to sustainability and 2nd hand markets keep things in use for longer meaning new items do not need to be consumed. Viewing a foamy as a throw away item is probably not very eco friendly as i doubt much of it gets recycled.