Does your club allow lone pilots?

[Tim Kearsley]

Hi all,

 

I went to my club's AGM last week, and the old chestnut of whether members should be allowed to fly on the club's patch alone raised its head again.  At the moment, the club's rules allow it, but there are a number of members who wish to see it banned.  As far as I can see, their view is that if an accident occurs the club is liable and could be sued.

 

I don't agree, as surely if an accident occurs the same principle applies whether you are alone or not.

 

I can understand the view that there is a danger of injuring yourself with a model aircraft and that you could render yourself unable to call for help.  However, everything in life carries risk and my view is that this attitude is one more example of how some folk wish to control and eliminate every possible risk, at whatever cost.  These days, you take your life in your hands every time you use your car, but it doesn't stop us.

 

I joined the club because the field is very local to me and I want to be able to pop up there if I have an hour to spare and fly a couple of batteries-worth in one of my electric models.  I don't want to have to restrict myself to being there only when others are there, as I occasionally get a day off and want to use it!

 

One suggestion at our AGM is that members should sign a disclaimer when paying their subs, accepting sole liability if they have an accident.  Another suggestion was that the ban on lone flying should apply only to powered models, to which someone piped up that, and I quote, "a glider can kill you know"!!!!  For pity's sake, what's wrong with these people?!!!!  You could be hit by a meteorite but it's not something that prevents most people from going about their daily business!

 

How does your club view flying alone and what do you think about it?

 

Cheers,

 

Tim.

 

[Bruce Richards]

Its not allowed at my club.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Its allowed at my club - but I'd say it wasn't encouraged. But if you want to, and as long as you have at least an A cert, it isn't banned. I'd also say that there is no talk of bannng it either.

 

BEB

[Keith]

Our club also bans pilots from lone flying, although the reason for this (which I totally agree with), is that we fly from a farmers field which is also used by full size aircraft.

You cannot possibly watch your model and look out for the full size at the same time.

[BB]

Allowed at my club.  Coincidently, the only reported accident this year was mentioned at our AGM a few weeks back.  Hand went through an I.C. engine (Irvine .46. 11x6).  Hand belonged to one of the club 'Instructors'.  There were eight pilots at the field that day.  One doesn't have to be on ones own to be careless.

 

Though, I agree with Keiths point regarding flight conditions. Ano dictates a responsible position where 'full' size craft or mop are concerned.

Edited By Basildon Biggles on 13/12/2009 03:29:13

[David Davis]

In response to BB's point, years ago we were conducting noise tests. The then Treasurer picked up his Acrowot by reaching over the propeller and grasping the fuselage. However, the engine, a 61 two-stroke was running at high speed, he lost his grip on the oily fuselage and the prop took a big slice out of his forearm. Fortunately there were plenty of us at the field, we wrapped a bandage round his arm and drove him to the hospital. I drove to his house to pick up his wife so that she could drive the car back home.

 

Just imagine what would have happened had he been there alone.

 

Our club does not specifically ban lone flying but it is not encouraged.

 

 

[BB]

Posted by David Davis Telemaster Sales UK on 13/12/2009 07:58:18:

 

Our club does not specifically ban lone flying but it is not encouraged.

 

Ditto - Though under 16 yrs of age are prohibited without a suitable qualifyed/passed trainer/instructor, regardless of whether or not they (U 16) have an A or B cert. i.e. 'mum' can't drop them off at the patch on a sunny saturday afternoon and leave them on their own, whilst she pops off to the shops!

 

 

 

 

Edited By Basildon Biggles on 13/12/2009 08:20:51

[Tim Mackey]

I agree with everything in the O/P. Gawd forbid this nanny state of ours prohibits being able to nip out and fly our model aeroplanes alone once in while. What about the alledged nations most popular sport /hobby - fishing, or angling if you prefer.....that, as in all things, carries a risk, are we to be accompanied like little children on that too, in case we fall in the water. Maybe we should ban walking along the beach or cliff tops too, unless we have a baby sitter.

Its allowed at our club, and I cant see any "Insurance" reasons as to why it would not be.

 

I may have posted this before somewhere in another galaxy far away...but worth another read I think.

I will link to it rather than go off topic and clog this thread.

Edited By Timbo - Administrator on 13/12/2009 08:43:58

[Peter Miller]

No restrictions in our club but most of our flying sites are Sunday only. One meber flied helicopters by himself on a regular basis.

 

I used to do quite a lot on my own, mainly aerial photography. Never was really happy and  I don't fly on my own now.

 

WE will soon have a field for use at any time. There will be no restrictions on flying at any time. That was one reason for negotiating the field.

[Tim Kearsley]

Well good on yer Timbo!!  Thank goodness someone else can take a sensible view on this - I was beginning to think I was a lone voice.

 

Some while ago, at my local club, someone apparently lost control of a model (I wasn't there, so I relate this second-hand) for reasons I am not aware of.  Anyway, the afore-mentioned model apparently skimmed across the pits area, a few feet above people's heads.  Now in that case, the results could have been WORSE than if the pilot had been there alone!  OK, it's a flippant example, but it does illustrate a point I think.  As Timbo eloquently points out, EVERY pastime has an element of risk.  To take it to the extreme, any one of us could suffer a heart-attack at any time - how long before the nanny police make it illegal to go ANYWHERE on your own?

 

As to the quoted example of  "reaching over the propeller and grasping the fuselage", well, if you are so careless then perhaps you should get yourself on to a basic model flying safety course that I'm sure the nanny police would be only too glad to set up and run!

 

The only other point I would make is that when you look at the number of small electric helicopters being sold now in High Street stores to people (children?) who, in many cases you would presume, have no experience in R/C flying, then the whole question of safety becomes a bit of a moot point.  If, as one of my fellow club-members thinks, a "glider can kill", then think what those evil rotors going round at high speed can do!

 

Cheers,

 

Tim.

[Tim Mackey]

And lord help us all if the elfinsafety fun police ever visit our indoor flying sessions - spot landing competions involve the Parkzone Vapors and peoples heads! One member did suggest we should all wear safety goggles when the mayhem starts...but we made him go and stand in the corner and used him as target practice, I here he is now suing us for his ongoing lack of self esteem and depression.

Actually, this is another example of where flying in a group is more dangerous than flying on your own

[birdy]

No one flies alone at my club, but then, it is a private helicopter landing strip...

[ken anderson.]

the thing is we cannot compare club for club as they are all in different location's and the places are owned by different orginisation's/council's etc---with rules that will apply to one place but not another..........

our club site is land owned by the council..who license us to carry out our club flying there..as long as we are insured by the BMFA and adhere to the association rules etc.......and we have our own locally applied rule's...which all member's must stick to as our field is joined on to other land that is shared for other activity's....

of course everything run's along pretty well on a day to day basis as most of our member's are pretty responsible in there approach to flying model aircraft-and of course we like evey other association have one or two loose cannon's that need a bit of extra supervision etc.... we allway's have allowed people to fly on there own-whether they have an A cert or not...if this is right or wrong is open to debate--but i think that there will never be a correct answer...

during my time as a club offical over the year's-what has allway's concerned me was that (if) ever there was an incident at our site-it would be the club official's that would have to be accountable for the member's action's and as such we allway's recently have investigated any near miss/or complaint's against us....

 

 ken anderson.........blyth valley radio model club........130+member's..  

[flytilbroke]

I am a paid up member of three clubs, none of them has a restriction preventing lone flying after a flyer has shown reasonable control of the model and knowledge of startup actions.

 

Some areas may require a better lookout for intruders, other than that however the individuals should be responsible for thier OWN choice to fly alone. We all in any part of our lives are alone for some or much of the time. Example, soon to be two years ago my wife was assisting our daughter at daughters house. I took the decision to step out my house door, then I wakened up lying on the paving slabs on my back not knowing how I got there. Minutes later I realised that it was icy cold and raining, then found I had likely smashed my ankle, so I dragged myself indoors taking skin off my shins on the doorstep. Yes I had a double fracture.

 

So, then, the question is, should we do something, (flying), when alone for our safety? Just in case something does go wrong? Mostly one would need to be foolish to honestly say "no we should not". Because we all do things when alone.

[Olly Giles]

I was flying on my own today. We are allowd to fly on our own at our club but the steps i take are as follows;

 

Take my mobile and leave it in my pocket or next to the box turend on

 

Map reference is painted on the gate to the pits (driving may not be an option)

 

Keep a first aid kit in the box

 

And rememember that all these things may have to be carried out while loosing blood and missing fingers so make everything easy to get to.

 

 

[buster prop]

Lone flying is allowed (or at least not forbidden) at our club which is why I joined it. I'm retired and if the weather's good and I have time I'll charge some batteries and nip up to the field for a few flights. I agree with the chap who compared us to anglers in that they may fall in the water but you see plenty of people fishing (angling?) alone. We musn't get carried away with this, there's risk in anything except sitting at home watching telly. Other members fly alone at our field and as far as I know there have been no accidents, most of us don't even have the A but we're careful and can fly safely. Too many rules in a club will just encourage people to go off and fly somewhere unsuitable. You wonder what happens to all the planes sold by Hobby Zone, I think the word 'Parkflyer' is the most misleading term I've ever heard. Flying among kids, dogs, goalposts, near parked cars - no way!

[colin watson]

thank that my 3 clubs i am a member of will allow lone flying as i fly maily midweek usually every day off unless the weather dictates i can't fly. i prefer it when other club members are around but i have had many days or evenings when no one else turns up. just apply common sense something the health and safety nuts forget. the days off i don't fly i go fishing often alone again sometimes overnight. i also scuba dive now then i definateley take another diver with me as we carry each others spare air and help in case of things like net entanglement now that would be dangerous  and reckless to do alone. while flying i always have a mobile phone with me and the one club out in the sticks has map refernces on the outside of the club house.   while flying alone i usualy haven't someone standing over my shoulder asking silly q's when starting or tuning engines being distracted during these proceedures proberly accounts for more lost digits and prop strikes.  

[David Turner]

My view, as you'd expect, is most definitely libertarian.

 

That is, you can take your "ban" and shove it where the sun don't shine!

 

I don't need your permission to operate my model aeroplane...unless and until you become an elected MP and force through an Act which so states.

 

 As long as you are some non-entity whose only claim to authority is membership of a model aeroplane club, you should curb your lust for power and confine yourself to ensuring that the grass gets cut and the field' rent is paid on time.

 

It's those geezers in the reflective jackets, isn't it? Guys, resist this stuff. Don't let 'em turn

you children.

[Bruce Richards]

I understand you position Tony and I feel similar, if not so passionately. Do you not find that some  clubs do not want you as a member when you express this view?

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I find it saddening that we do not seem able to discuss any safety issue in an adult fashion. Always one side or the other will recourse to personal insults or childish name calling. I would not class mayself as particularly hard line pro or anti, but I do think that language that stereotypes those that do happen to hold the opposing views is unhelpful.

 

Can we try at least a little mutual respect and avoid language like "nonentity", "orange vested brigade", "H&S Police", "Safety Fun Police", etc. Other people are entitled to express their concerns - this is a free society as some are quite right to point out.

 

Before anyone jumps on me as a suspected "orange vester" , I am not. And I am not making a pitch for one side or the other - indeed I can see valid points on both sides. But I am asking for a more sensible grown up debate and for just a little more tolerance of other people's points of view. Let's have an end to insulting and ridiculing fellow modellers who just might feel they have valid concerns from time to time. If we can't achieve this then this is one modeller who might be looking to spend his time somewhere else.

 

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother on 14/12/2009 12:38:13

[Erfolg]

A more pertinent question is along the lines should you be allowed to fly your model if there is less than 3. Which seems to be the policy with regard to working on the motorways, which I assume is in accordance with the Highways Agency .

 

Yesterday travelling to Cumbria on a visit, We as usual went through a number of roadworks. Most had average speed cameras for several miles of , well, nothing, other than a contractors wagon, where the driver was having his dinner I think. But thankfully he was not working. If he were, what if....... No the surprising roadworks were near to Tebay, here there were a few cones, a 50mph restriction, yet there were 3 or is it 1 workman. As the one man worked, two carefully supervised, with folded arms

 

From this I suspect the reason no one is seen to work on the works of several miles, is that three people cannot be found. In this respect the Highways Agency is showing us all the way forward, section of anywhere where some activity may take place, in the interests of safety," do nothing". Most importantly fine anyone you can, this will pay for the safety measures. Simples! 

 

It will shortly be our AGM, I intended raising this very issue. No one should be permitted to undertake any activity unless at least three trained persons are present. The first could for argument fly a model, the second would ensure that if anything untowards were to occur, he would intervene. Whilst the third would ensure that all respond and undertook their roles in a safe manner and in accordance with the clubs and national regulation, Codes of Practice and recommendations.  This should run to no one should enter the club premises, until three are present.

 

I feel in great danger at present, as I sit at home with the cat. Now where is that chainsaw, shorts and sandels, the roses need pruning!

 

Erfolg

[Olly P]

To me it is all very simple - who is responsible for a model - The pilot in charge. Who makes a decision on safety - The pilot in charge. Who decides if he should fly or not.....

 

Guidance is always needed to ensure/assist with good decision making but this seems like a pointless ban.

 

My club has restricted flying at one of our 3 fields, but that is a council requirement and we have 2 alternate fields (although the one where none A-certs cannot fly is the best strip for beginners!).

 

If there is any kind of accident the PIC is the one responsible - simple.

[Tim Kearsley]

Well this topic seems, probably not surprisingly, to have generated some interest.  The general thrust from those in my club who want a ban on lone flying put back into place seems to be that they feel that, if an accident occurs, the club will be held liable, they'll be sued, there'll be all sorts of hoo-hah and they'll end up losing the field.  I think the logic is flawed though - surely they could still be held liable if an accident occurs, even if a crowd is present?  If that genuinely is the fear, then the idea of getting club members to sign a disclaimer is surely a reasonable compromise?

 

I occasionally fly alone at the club patch, and I ALWAYS make sure that my mobile phone is charged, switched on and in my pocket.  And yes, the network that my phone is on has good signal strength at the patch.  If I have an accident, I have no intention of trying to sue anyone - it will be either down to MY stupidity (though I'm VERY careful) or sheer bad luck.

 

At my club, the question is pending until Manny Williamson from the BMFA visits to give us a talk in a few weeks time.  The committee intend to use the opportunity to ask his advice.  Personally I think it's a wate of time, as he will presumably give the BMFA "official" opinion, which is that flying alone "should be avoided if at all possible" (from the Member's Handbook).  I suspect that they will use that as enough leverage to put a ban in place again.  Time will tell.

 

Tim.

[wesley pumpkinhead]

this is why i shall never join an rc club! A1 certificate? Ha! health and safety has nothing to do with these rules and certificates, it all comes down to one thing - control.

 

health and safety is about common sense, not rules. if someone flies "dangerously" at a club and shows a lack of consideration for others safety then ban them. you don't need rules to do that.

 

if someone wants to fly alone and risk injuring themselves then what concern is that of anyones? (of course each flying site is different, and some clubs may possibly be held accountable for an accident that happens on their ground. but if it's a question of legal responsibiities, then a disclaimer should be issued).

 

helikopters are actually far safer flown alone. accidents with helis can happen considerably faster with planes (i'm sure someone is going to disagree with this) and unlike plane accidents you very often wont see them coming. so the less people standing around the better. (the following equation could even be applied: less people standing around * less showing off = less accidents)

 

an element of danger exists in nearly all sports and activities, and each (adult) individual should be responsible for their own safety. (would you rely on someone else to check your parachute before you jumped?)

 

flying clubs give certain individuals an environment in which to feel powerful and in charge. i believe that the people who enforce the kind of rules mentioned in this thread's OP are the same kind of people who would gladly put a person in prison for their own safety, because they expressed a desire to go rock climbing and rock climbing is dangerous.

[Andy Symons]

All seems very straight forward to me, there will be some clubs where another pair of eyes is needed for safety reasons and it would be entirely sensible for them to ban flying if theres only one person there, at other clubs it's not an issue. However if the majority of members at a club think banning flying on your own is the way to go so be it, can't see how a committee can enforce it without the backing of the club.  Unfortunately relying on common sense is asking for problems as it's a commodity thats in all too short supply.