Ideal trainer - need help choosing plane

[Steve W-O]

Richard, looking at your Discovery reminds me of another point that I don't think has been mentioned.

Tricycle or tail dragger?

The Discovery looks very similar to the Mentor in many ways, but the u/c is a big difference.

I personally prefer tail dragger, and don't have any problems with ground handling with anything I have, but some people have definite ideas what they want.

[Richard Harris]

Steve,

Totally agree regarding a tail dragger as they have to be flown off the ground in a more controlled manner. Trikes also can be flown off the ground but its so easy to just power up and pull back on the stick, that is not good practice I don't think for someone new and it can so end in tears.

Rich

[Ernie]

My advice, Redstorm is to BUILD a good trainer, A super 60, or a Flair cub...So many people miss out on building, which to me is probably the most satisfying part of our hobby. So many are looking for instant gratification, and turn to these awful foam toys. They are not true aeromodellers, they are plastic toy flyers.

ernie

[Alwyn Gee]

Well Ernie, I see from the number of forum posts that you have likely been around this hobby a lot longer than me but it seems to me that there are more ARTF and the like flying off the shelves than traditional kits.

If there are many more people like you raining on prospective modellers parades then I'm surprised anyone wants to come into the hobby. people have different skills and needs and I for one don't want to spend hours building models from scratch but still enjoy the flying and camaraderie of this hobby.

Just because you consider yourself a traditional builder does not give you the right to denegrate those who wish to take a different route.

 

Alwyn

Edited By Alwyn Gee on 19/04/2012 21:18:56

[Steve W-O]

Posted by Ernie on 19/04/2012 17:36:48:

My advice, Redstorm is to BUILD a good trainer, A super 60, or a Flair cub...So many people miss out on building, which to me is probably the most satisfying part of our hobby. So many are looking for instant gratification, and turn to these awful foam toys. They are not true aeromodellers, they are plastic toy flyers.

ernie

And he drove ..................

Just think if we extended that thinking to many things in everyday life.

Who says he will miss out on building, or that anyone else would? I build and I fly foam, or should that be I fly foam and I build?

I also find driving a car to the shop more convenient than a donkey cart.

[Tony Bennett]

fly a foamy while you are building the next step up in flying skill.

[Redstorm]

Wow, plenty of opinions and ideas guys, thanks.

Well as I understand it it would appear that;

- Foam is more resilient to gentle knocks and bumps than balsa or ply, where foam will tend to bounce out and wood tends to snap and film pierce. whereas a more catastrophic crash will probably end up with a foam model converting to a pile of packing material, whereas a wooden model whilst mangled will, with some skill and patience, be repairable with a few bits of wood and a heap of glue, oh and a new coating of film.

- ic is a bit messy involves tuning engines and lots of tinkering with mitures and settings whereas electric is just switch on and go. The downside being recharge times between flights whereas ic is just re-fuel and up, up and away.

So plenty to think of. I really like the E-flite Apprentice 15e as well as the Multiplex Mentor but am struggling to find any. Can anyone help by suggesting suppliers please.

The Discovery would be my next choice. As you can see I am leaning to foam and as already mentioned in a previous post I want to go electric over ic.

As for building from scratch, no thanks. No patients for that kinda thing. I came to this hobby to FLY not build. Who knows what the future holds though, right. Maybe I will develop an appetite for it as the hobby takes hold.

[Steve W-O]

If you search for Multiplex Mentor, it brings up lots of shops, you would just need to contact them for stock levels.

Servos, ESC motor etc can be bought from HobbyKing, or Giantcod if by chance they have stock.

With the EPO foam, you won't end up with a pile of packing material, unlike styrofoam. Also remember that it is a trainer with simple construction, not an EDF with a lot of thin foam and complex construction.

Another possible plus for the Mentor is that Phoenix sim has a Mentor.

On the Mentor I get about 20min from a 4000mAh battery, it will take two of them!

If you buy a Mentor, and order from HK, their CA glue works well on it, don't use foam-safe glue or epoxy, or PVA.

[Lee Smalley]

"- ic is a bit messy involves tuning engines and lots of tinkering with mitures and settings whereas electric is just switch on and go. The downside being recharge times between flights whereas ic is just re-fuel and up, up and away."

well yes and no!!! if you are unable to operate an i c engine then that might well be true but for 90% of us i just turn up fuel up prime and one flick backwards and she is running, i don't need to mess with any valves or anything, and i can keep doing this until my gallon of fuel runs out, many are the times when i am the only one flying as the electric lads are either waiting to charge or all charge batteries have been depleated, some have even had to jump start their car to get home LOL

look it is swings and roundabouts mate, personally i prefer my pupils to have IC this is purely because i can get them to fly any time i wish and 4 flights a day is the minimum i like to do, if you do not do this you do not progress as a pupil, you tend to stay at the same ability, quite often i would take a pupil for a flight, land and then immediately tell him to re-fuel have a fag, pee whatever and then back up!! unless you have a plentiful supply of battries this can be difficault, and this requires some considerable investment, generally i don't really care as long as he is ready to fly when i want to teach, each and everytime

I really do hate this coversation, " right are we ready to go"... pupils reply...."Im still charging" doh!!!

[Allan Bowker]

www.electricwingman.com are currently showing stock of the Mentor.

[Lee Smalley]

size....size!!! mentor is a bigger plane and much better for it, other smaller trainers in my opinion are not suitable for a large proportion of pupils, when it comes time for the pupil to be trying certain things, figure of eights, loops etc these need to be done at height to allow cock-up time, with the smaller trainer this can be a real problem, go for the bigger mentor or epioneer, yes it will cost you more but you will not regret it !!

[Steve W-O]

Batteries are important, I agree, nothing worse than waiting for them to charge.

I take 4 for the Mentor, which gives me nearly 1 1/2 hours flying time, and 8 for the other planes, which gives me another 1 1/2 hours. I have only once used all I took, and wished I had more with me.

I also like your idea of 4 sessions in a day. The first club I belonged to here had a couple of members still on buddy cable after 2 years, purely from not enough stick time. However, it was quite hard to get a slot, due to the flying practices of some of the members.

The batteries you pay for up front, the fuel you pay for as you go, I haven't worked out which is more economical over a couple of years, but agreed batteries need a meaningful up-front investment, each battery for the Mentor costing about the same as a gallon of fuel. (Would you get 60+ 15 minute flights from a gallon of fuel on a 40 motor? I don't know.)

It is a good point you've make for some one making a choice, particlarly if on a limited start-up budget.

[Olly P]

I fly electric only, not for any ideal, but pirely due to living in rented accomidation at the moment and the landlord not wanting fuel in the house.

I also understand a lot more about electrics and feel more confident in them.

I have been the only student at the field ready to fly, due to the fact I have invested in batteries and bring plenty to fly with to the field with me. I'm now solo, but still seem to get more, longer, launches than many of the IC guys. This may change due to the pending change of main aircraft.

It got to the point where I was able to recharge a pack fully during the following flight - depending on conditions. I also had some 4s batteries which I wasn't using which got used as field batteries, they will be in use soon though so an alternative may be needed.

In summary - for electric yes, an iniitial investment in batteries can be well worth it, but in can be a significant cost, for IC the cost is smaller at a time, but keeps on going.

Sometimes things other than the field conditions/instructors etc can have a huge effect on the available choices for a flier, and this needs to be considered also.

[riverlandgirl.]

Good on you redstorm, for wanting to fly, and wanting advice. I think by now you'll have a fairly well formed view of how you want to go about it so stick with it. Some thing that dosn't seem to have been considered is the intimidation factor. That breakable piece of craftmanship with that screaming thing on the front that you're expected to send hurling down the runway is scary! I learnt the trad 40 trainer way, and my first solo was on a 60 pattern ship. I crashed the trainer but got the pattern ship down ok. The point being I was terrified the whole time. The planes, even the trainer, were too fast, so I had to fly high and far and the would lose orientation. Fly electric, fly foam, fly big and slow. Take the fear away and enjoy the learning process! There's plenty of time for other planes ahead. All the very best.

Edited By riverlandgirl. on 20/04/2012 11:05:33

[cymaz]

Arising Star or Wot Trainer

[Lee Smalley]

hey steve your batteries must be cheap mate £12-00 for a gallon of fuel!!!!

agreed not sure which is cheaper or more expensive, i prefer the noise myself but i dont really care as long as they are ready to fly when i want them to be, i really do push the people i teach quite hard, but to be honest none of them stay on the buddy for long!!! not if i have my way

[Olly P]

Lipo 3S 2300mah, £11.11 from a large fish.

This would keep my (now extinct) last aircraft in the air for over 45 minutes, longer if I could find some free 'go'

buy the time my instructor had a brew and was ready to go up again the first pack would have been fully charged again, but didn;t normally get used as I had 6 packs at one stage!

[Steve W-O]

Posted by Lee Smalley on 20/04/2012 12:44:35:

hey steve your batteries must be cheap mate £12-00 for a gallon of fuel!!!!

agreed not sure which is cheaper or more expensive, i prefer the noise myself but i dont really care as long as they are ready to fly when i want them to be, i really do push the people i teach quite hard, but to be honest none of them stay on the buddy for long!!! not if i have my way

$19.99 each, but then I didn't think the fuel was only £12 a gallon, thought it was about £15.

I paid £18 (including postage) for two on ebay a couple of years back, and they are still good, but now it is easier just to buy from HK, they are consistent quality.

The only engines I like the sound o I can't afford

[Redstorm]

Thanks again to all who posted. Wow Ive had plenty to consider.

Pretty much decided on the Mentor, mainly due to its size. I found a few places online that have it (unlike the Apprentice, which must be end of line). Had a look at the 4max site, mainly as they offer the mentor with all the electrics and gubbins as a kit.

This brings me to my next question. can I kit it out any cheaper than with the components suggested on the 4 max site? I hear Giant Cod and Hobby King are both good sites but Ive no clue what Im looking for.

Anybody wanna help me spec this baby up?

Thanks in advance

[Andrew767]

Hi Redstorm...The model number on purple power motors equates to XYH motors on GC site..Much cheaper and an equivalent size Hobbywing esc will probably save you some money too..you might have to wait though as GC are moving and their stock is low until May.

Andrew

[Steve W-O]

Posted by Redstorm on 22/04/2012 22:13:04:

Thanks again to all who posted. Wow Ive had plenty to consider.

Pretty much decided on the Mentor, mainly due to its size. I found a few places online that have it (unlike the Apprentice, which must be end of line). Had a look at the 4max site, mainly as they offer the mentor with all the electrics and gubbins as a kit.

This brings me to my next question. can I kit it out any cheaper than with the components suggested on the 4 max site? I hear Giant Cod and Hobby King are both good sites but Ive no clue what Im looking for.

Anybody wanna help me spec this baby up?

Thanks in advance

I don't know what is suggested or the prices you mention, but I fly mine on a 3536 1000 Turnigy motor, 50A ESC (too big, but not much more expensive than just big enough). The servos (17g size) are also available from Hobbyking, as are the batteries, you only need 20C batteries.

It flies faster and climbs steeper on a 3542 motor, but the 3536 is plenty for trainer performance.

[David Davis]

In my experience, Giant Cod's prices, quality and customer service are all very good.

[Redstorm]

GC dont have any stock of the hobbywing 50Amp ESC but have a 40Amp or they have the 50Amp black mantis, any good? Would 40A be big enough or is that cutting it fine. I also notice there is no BEC on the hobbywing ESC's, is it better to power the receiver separately on a model of this size with its own power pack or just use a UBEC?

Also when it comes to servos i assume i dont want to penny pinch too much lest my model fall from the heavens. Again any recommendations?

[Steve W-O]

What ESC depends on what motor and prop you are going to use/

I used an ESC with a BEC, but it is a seperate unit to the ESC, just came attached.

I think t h e s e are the servos I used.

Just look at the size, then select the best you can, metal gear is nice as you are less likely to have to cut it out to replace.

[Redstorm]

Well as far as the motor is concerned I was going to go with your recommendation of the 3536, Do you think a 40A ESC will do or would you build in more headroom?

As for the servo's I checked out that one you suggested but its out of stock at both HK and GC. I'm wanting to place an order this week are there others you would recommend? I will try and find alternative suppliers, is it a digital servo or analogue, I can see its metal gear but wasnt sure about Digi or analog?

Also on the 4 max site they ercommend a 3546 motor, what is the difference?