Bandit Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Isn't part of the hobby being part of the community? The community of RCME... BMFA Yes the insurance is a very important requirement however no matter what size the piece of private land one flys on, is it not part of this hobby to be part of the community and protect the hobby in the best way we know how by practicing sensible flying as marked-out by the BMFA it also tells you how to stay out of trouble. BMFA insurance costs so little and the guidelines / rules are so simple and logical to follow I fail to see why one would fly without it 38 acres or 100! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jez Harris 1 Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 As an examiner I find some clubs have a slight confusion over the A Test. As always - It is just a personal achievement scheme - It just so happens that many clubs have adopted as a certificate to fly solo. I have no problem with that, What my job as an examiner to do is to turn up and judge the pilots ability to perform the requirements of a set of manouvers, to ensure their approach to safety during the test (including pre and post flight checks) and to answer questions relating to safety which can include site specific requirements....ONCE AND ONCE ONLY. If what I see satisfies the requirements set out in the Examiners criteria for the test then its a pass. If a club uses it as a solo certificate and the pilot previosly or subsequently displays poor safety, reckless flying, abject stupidity etc, then that is down to an individual club to sort those issues out through its club rules and policies. Demonstrating the ability to fly the A schedule once safely is all the Achievement Scheme requires. This is fundamentally no different than a driving test - You can apply for a test - if you demonstrate competence you get a piece of paper giving you the right to go out alone and drive like a to&&er at 100mph. Its the police who manage this behaviour. I'm not required to have regular re-tests for my driving licence and look how much damage and loss of life vehicles cause - so to sugest it should be so for flying a toy plane round a field is unlikely (obviously nothing to stop a club setting regular re-assessment as part of their constitution) What I'm saying is clubs need to ensure that flying is safe and must have the teeth within their constitutions to do so. Its not down to examiners or short falls of the achievement system. The achievement scheme is transparent - the BMFA go as far as to publicise openly what examiner guidelines are. If a candidate feels their test was unfair there is an appeals process. A club can choose whether to re-appoint examiners if they arent happy with performance. Jez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyh Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 to extend the Driving Test analogy a bit, what the DVLA *does* do, is impose health, eyesight, etc. tests above a certain age as sight, reactions, etc. maybe start to fade a bit so, picture the scene (which may sound familiar to some): dear old Fred, who may have taken an A-test back in the mists of time, no-one can quite remember (possibly not even him), heads out to the strip with his latest model - another beautifully self-built EDF jet perhaps - the last one having lasted a scant few visits to the field he takes off, disappears half way to the horizon, brings it back, buzzes the pits a few times & then piles it into the ground/tree/river/etc. we all have a good chuckle: "good old Fred, always adds some excitement to the day. good job he's the safety officer otherwise he'd have to have a stern word with himself!" just a thought for those saying: "I've been flying 40 years, I don't need an A-test" ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avtur Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Well this has been a very interesting discussion! In the space of little more than two weeks it has attracted 127 contributions and has been viewed very nearly 4000 times. I wonder what folks who are new to the hobby, or just 'having a look', will be thinking about the BMFA 'A' test ? It wouldn't surprise me if some of them have run a mile and decided to take up knitting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 its a club issue Andy club belongs to its members I like old Fred though hes good company, done a lot for the club is one of its founding members Fred has a bit of trouble getting back up when he kneels down, so I usually start up for him and carry his model out I then stay by his side make sure he's ok, discreetly of course, don't want to hurt his feelings. when he's done I retrieve his model for him and then sit and have a natter. Fred knows i'm keeping my eye on him, but he humours me. funny enough this is just what he did for me when I was learning to fly Edited By john stones 1 on 20/02/2014 01:15:00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 How true... Avtur - I hope that those new folk will have been able to see that the examiners who've posted only want to see a demonstration of safe operation and a basic knowledge of procedures and rules. No unexpected surprises, trick questions or unreasonable demands. Yes, there are a few who question the validity of the test or its application but surely the overwhelming impression must be of a general acceptance of its value as an indicator of progress, standard to aim for and tool for clubs to demonstrate that they have a standard requirement for pilots to operate unsupervised for the sake of fairness and mutual benefit. I have yet to meet a beginner who has questioned the need or value of the A test - they (quite reasonably) see it as a challenge and an achievement. The opponents do seem to be long established flyers who have either not had the need or opportunity to take the test in earlier years - or, dare I suggest it, could it be that they are frightened that they will show themselves up if they should try to pass the test? After all, if you're too good to need to take such a simple test, why not give the club a demonstration of how it should be done! Edited By Martin Harris on 20/02/2014 01:40:30 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyh Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Posted by john stones 1 on 20/02/2014 00:42:04: its a club issue I think that could/should probably sum up the entire thread! john stones 1 I like old Fred though hes good company, done a lot for the club is one of its founding members Fred has a bit of trouble getting back up when he kneels down, so I usually start up for him and carry his model out I then stay by his side make sure he's ok, discreetly of course, don't want to hurt his feelings. when he's done I retrieve his model for him and then sit and have a natter. Fred knows i'm keeping my eye on him, but he humours me. funny enough this is just what he did for me when I was learning to fly couldn't agree more. it absolutely wasn't my intent to denigrate people such as this. very often they are the characters & cornerstones of a club, & have been for many years. & yes, they were the people who helped me out in the early days as a teenage oik. it is rather nice that (most, sadly some have passed on) of them are still around in the club after I took a 25 year break my point really was that 40 years' experience may or may not equate to safe flying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyh Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Posted by Martin Harris on 20/02/2014 01:35:46: How true... Avtur - I hope that those new folk will have been able to see that the examiners who've posted only want to see a demonstration of safe operation and a basic knowledge of procedures and rules. No unexpected surprises, trick questions or unreasonable demands. Yes, there are a few who question the validity of the test or its application but surely the overwhelming impression must be of a general acceptance of its value as an indicator of progress, standard to aim for and tool for clubs to demonstrate that they have a standard requirement for pilots to operate unsupervised for the sake of fairness and mutual benefit. I have yet to meet a beginner who has questioned the need or value of the A test - they (quite reasonably) see it as a challenge and an achievement. The opponents do seem to be long established flyers who have either not had the need or opportunity to take the test in earlier years - or, dare I suggest it, could it be that they are frightened that they will show themselves up if they should try to pass the test? After all, if you're too good to need to take such a simple test, why not give the club a demonstration of how it should be done! in a nutshell. this forum needs a 'like' button Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 no problem Andy H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Gorham_ Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 I think Martin H has summed it up in a nutshell 3 posts up. I have found new flyers receptive to the aims and requirements of the A test (and in my opinion they have got some tangible experience and feedback about their flying when taking the test). The resistance I have met does tend to be from old established flyers who don't need to prove their ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken anderson. Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 there was a proposal some years ago in our club(100+ members) to have every member take the A test.......as soon as it was mentioned it was like WW3....... and the idea was put to one side..... ken Anderson ne...1 ........ A test dept... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jez Harris 1 Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Posted by ken anderson. on 20/02/2014 12:36:47: there was a proposal some years ago in our club(100+ members) to have every member take the A test.......as soon as it was mentioned it was like WW3....... and the idea was put to one side..... Does your club offer A tests etc Ken? If so - do any people take them? Jez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lee Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Another for Martin's post from this examiner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 to ken and Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 I do not think I have read any one state in this thread that they are against the "A" test. That does not mean that all are madly infavour of some of the suggestions made, or reservations about some aspects or apparent suggestions. I can see and understand why some clubs and particularly event organisers can be attracted to the award. I can also see that some clubs (including my first club) see no need to use award as a means of assessment. The club collectively being capable of self regulation and management. Also at a personal level I have no great compulsion to want a certificate beyond a practical need, that to fly else where at a organised event. It is rather provocative (where are you BEB) to suggest that those who do not take the test are fearful of their abilities. This is almost certainly total tosh. Consider a modeller who has flown for 5 -20 years, still flying successfully models built when first starting out, going for months without any incidents of any kind. Can you seriously consider them to be unsafe? They may not agree with your view of safety, nor you with theirs, although that does not make either right, in all circumstances. Compare the situation with younger people. Taking motoring as a benchmark, as there has been many studies and data on old and younger drivers. Younger people have more accidents than older people, either by mile travelled or by age group (having balanced the numbers). Young people are less experienced and less capable of recognising risks. As a group they are also more inclined to engage in risk taking, from motoring, to base jumping, and so on. In short older flyers are in general more aware of their own limitations and manage there actions in accord to their environment, than in general younger people will. Some have made the efforts to clarify that the perception by gut instincts that a person engages in unsafe practises, should not be part of an "A" test assessment, being evidence based. I would go as far to suggest any modeller who has many years of successful safe operation of models should not fail the "A" test. If they do, I would be somewhat aghast. Where I differ from many, I hold the UK Regulations and Laws to be my principal objective in being compliant. I know that at least one of the pronouncements made by the BMFA, with respect as to what is in breach of both EU and UK laws and regulations is not correct. I feel that all interpretations of regulations should be on the basis of advice, with reference to what is the regulation. At the end of the day, you are prosecuted on the basis of breaching laws and regulation, not, for not adhering to the BMFA interpretation. I do think a few of us are concerned that there is a push by some to extend the BMFA "A" test beyond individuals and clubs making their own independent decision of how to view the tests. Do not think I am anti BMFA, I am engaged with the BMFA. Although I would like to see an organisation for ordinary modellers, of the 21st Century, where modellers make decisions on a collective basis, as far is practical. An organisation which is more of an association, rather than structured more in line with trade unions. That is one member one vote, rather than the block voting concept, where club vote as is used in some meetings. I would compare the the structures of the non established Churches, with that of established church organisations. Given there are so few of us is it 30, 000 or 60,000. Being positive, I can see the moves are taking place to improve the IT services to and with members and a wider audience. After all times change, as was apparent at a recent meeting, where a representative endeavoured to remind those gathered, to the articles of association, which are similar to a learned society. Very different than the order of today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Carr Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Posted by Jez Harris 1 on 20/02/2014 15:18:18: Posted by ken anderson. on 20/02/2014 12:36:47: there was a proposal some years ago in our club(100+ members) to have every member take the A test.......as soon as it was mentioned it was like WW3....... and the idea was put to one side..... Does your club offer A tests etc Ken? If so - do any people take them? Jez I'm in kens club. We do offer A tests...... I myself was one of kens pupils 😳 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken anderson. Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Posted by Jez Harris 1 on 20/02/2014 15:18:18: Posted by ken anderson. on 20/02/2014 12:36:47: there was a proposal some years ago in our club(100+ members) to have every member take the A test.......as soon as it was mentioned it was like WW3....... and the idea was put to one side..... Does your club offer A tests etc Ken? If so - do any people take them? Jez hello jez...our club(BVRMC) has been established since the 1960's and currently we have over 100+ members.....I have been a member since learning to fly RC models in 1989....and since day one I've always found our club to be open and friendly.....fair enough we have one or two 'wayward' members...but most are pretty much average club members.......as re the BMFA achievement scheme.....we as a club try and run our site to the BMFA recommendations and our local(club) made rules....and there are one or two stipulations we have to obey that are part of our licence to operate by the local council who own the land and allow us to fly there as a club... the achievement scheme is run by myself and two other club examiner's and we can call upon an area examiner if we need to..he is also a member of our club.....there is no pressure upon anybody to take test's....and as such they are seen as totally voluntary ...... and again they are done as per the recommendations in the guidelines etc...check out our web site...BVRMC.... ken Anderson ne..1 .BVRMC test dept. Edited By ken anderson. on 20/02/2014 17:17:25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 They say it's not a requirement but you try flying solo at a club without one ,There are one or two who will let you go solo on you'r personal merits ,but not many as I have found out at my X club it was the holy Grail.lol To a lot of rc pilots the A is a sort of gold medal they can flaunt at people who say you don't need them any way each to their own as normal we find a nice hobby to enjoy our sundays and midweek and the do gooders arrive with rules and regs .why can't we just be careful and safe without all the red tape? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Gorham_ Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 I think you have to consider the club's side as well Bernie. Let's say they have been allowed to rent a site, have put effort into preparing and maintaining a strip, perhaps have a container to keep the lawnmower etc in, have worked hard at not annoying their neighbours or other users of the land who may share their site (especially if it's owned by the local authority). They have to take some small duty of care to the established members that any new flyer who will be an unknown quantity is capable of demonstrating safe operating practises and, equally, knows what those practises are. If you turn up as a prospective new member and you already hold an A then to a club committee you would have satisfied them on the points mentioned. If you turned up without one, then perhaps the committee might check on your safe flying by asking you to perform a demo flight. They might look at your pit discipline, handling of the model on the ground, frequency control etc and then they might check that you are a steady sort of chap when flying the model. They might then ask you about the club rules to check you have a working knowledge of them. And if you did all that (not unreasonable to me) you may as well have just taken your A test! If they just let all new members loose then perhaps they might encounter a situation where someone who is not as capable as they say they are does something that could jeopardise the clubs future use of their site. In this situation I am sure the committee would by their members asked what they had done to assess the new members ability. The simple fact is that many clubs adopt the A because it is clearly laid out, is easy to actually take and it is a decent measure of someone's ability in the air and attitude to safety. Plus from a clubs point of view it has the advantage that if a member suddenly starts flying consistently below the standard required they have the sanction of having the A cert withdrawn. The errant member would then have to re-take the test and perhaps the club would offer the encouragement or coaching of their instructor and/or examiner to help get the member back to the required standard. The A cert is many things, but it certainly isn't a gold medal or holy grail. It's a simple set of activities, manoeuvres, actions and questioning that then gives the successful candidate an achievement which can lead on to more challenging achievements to further their enjoyment of the hobby should they wish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 60ish members, don't need A to fly solo, just membership card signed by an instructor when passed out 3 examiners, all juniors have at least an A, kids love it, comes easier to them most of club has an A or B. some are not bothered, that's fine clubs in favour of scheme, but its individuals choice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Posted by Alan Gorham_ on 20/02/2014 18:52:14: I think you have to consider the club's side as well Bernie. Let's say they have been allowed to rent a site, have put effort into preparing and maintaining a strip, perhaps have a container to keep the lawnmower etc in, have worked hard at not annoying their neighbours or other users of the land who may share their site (especially if it's owned by the local authority). They have to take some small duty of care to the established members that any new flyer who will be an unknown quantity is capable of demonstrating safe operating practises and, equally, knows what those practises are. If you turn up as a prospective new member and you already hold an A then to a club committee you would have satisfied them on the points mentioned. If you turned up without one, then perhaps the committee might check on your safe flying by asking you to perform a demo flight. They might look at your pit discipline, handling of the model on the ground, frequency control etc and then they might check that you are a steady sort of chap when flying the model. They might then ask you about the club rules to check you have a working knowledge of them. And if you did all that (not unreasonable to me) you may as well have just taken your A test! If they just let all new members loose then perhaps they might encounter a situation where someone who is not as capable as they say they are does something that could jeopardise the clubs future use of their site. In this situation I am sure the committee would by their members asked what they had done to assess the new members ability. The simple fact is that many clubs adopt the A because it is clearly laid out, is easy to actually take and it is a decent measure of someone's ability in the air and attitude to safety. Plus from a clubs point of view it has the advantage that if a member suddenly starts flying consistently below the standard required they have the sanction of having the A cert withdrawn. The errant member would then have to re-take the test and perhaps the club would offer the encouragement or coaching of their instructor and/or examiner to help get the member back to the required standard. The A cert is many things, but it certainly isn't a gold medal or holy grail. It's a simple set of activities, manoeuvres, actions and questioning that then gives the successful candidate an achievement which can lead on to more challenging achievements to further their enjoyment of the hobby should they wish. My turn to give a ! Whether or not you agree with every last word of the A test standard, it is (or certainly should be) a well defined and documented one, which should be clear to both the candidate and examiner. In the case of the club which has accepted it as a standard requirement for solo flight, it's patently unfair to admit a new, but experienced flyer who won't undertake a simple test that only demonstrates a basic level of skill and knowledge - as Alan points out, any check of a pilot's ability and knowledge would encompass all the major points in the test so why not get certification at the same time. Edited By Martin Harris on 21/02/2014 00:53:02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iqon Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 and me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Chaddock Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 The one bit about the basic A that I find odd is the minimum weight limit. There are a lot of planes that are below 1kg. It seems to suggest that anyone who flies these cannot be considered a competent pilot. Is there some feature of a plane above 1kg than a lighter one cannot perform as required by the A test? Hmmmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Gorham_ Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Simon it was expressly brought in to prevent the use of things like shock flyers etc. I think the rationale was that the test is more valuable if the aircraft used to take it can fly in a range of wind/weather conditions, plus it has a bit of speed and momentum. Lets face it, it might be quite difficult to arrange a time when a candidate, examiner and perfect weather were all present - and I think this was the genesis of addition of the weight limit. Also, the whole achievement scheme was devised in the early 1980's IIRC. The types of model considered for taking the A test then would probably have been your typical club trainer e.g. Super 60, Yamamoto, DB Pronto or Tyro, Precedent Hi-Boy and the like. Times change and models and tastes do too, so the change in the test standard seems to steer candidates more towards using such a model as described above. However, I can think of plenty of popular, cheap, lightweight foam models that would also be suitable for the test. There is no suggestion that anyone who flies models below 1kg cannot be considered competent. I think you are reading in something that isn't there. If you ever wished to take an A but didn't have a suitable model then you need to take it with a 1Kg+ model - either begged, borrowed, stolen or built. I took my B test with a clubmate's borrowed WOT4 and very grateful I was to him too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 While the fact that someone might only fly sub 1kg models doesn't make them any less of a pilot, there is a different skill set for very light models - little energy management, inertia against susceptibility to atmospheric conditions. The A test was designed to show competence to fly "normal" club models typically 50 - 60 inch span with an AUW of 2 - 4kg and these do demand better energy management than very light models. In recognition of the fact that some may not want to involve themselves in larger models, we've introduced a club test, based on the A to enable members like this to operate lightweight models without a formal A test as specified by our "normal" rules. Obviously there is little difference between a 0.9 and 1.1 kg model but the arbitrary limit (arguably a bit on the low side to my mind) excludes very light models that would bear no resemblence to a 120 powered 70 inch sports model that would come in under the <7kg limit of the A rating guidelines. Edited By Martin Harris on 21/02/2014 10:25:53 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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