Erfolg Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 BEB My concerns revolve around statements such as its not just specific safety actions the examiner is looking for - it is indeed your whole approach to conducting yourself in a safe, there are other statements made by others. In my opinion, it is the individual elements done in a safe way which builds up to demonstrate safe operation. I am at a loss how fulfilling the specifics can build up to to a picture which suggests a lack of fulfilment of safe operation. To suggest to me that the all the bits were done correctly can be other than compliance, baffles me other, than then suggesting, I do not want to pass you, and I have the power not to. I would hope, that this can not ever happen, and no one is an assessor who exhibits such a character defect. Yet the bottom line is in my opinion, they should not have this option at there discretion, without stating facts that back up the judgement. Yet if they have completed all aspects acceptably, what could possibly be the basis? To be honest I would hope that this would never happen, yet I feel the the option should be removed. When I have taken all my previous studies, if I answered all the questions in accordance with the marking scheme and reached a pass mark, as far as i am aware no one could arbitrarily say, Ah, we will not pass them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Bennett Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 i'm sorry but i do not understand the problem. if you want to fly without supervision you take your "A". its not hard, even i managed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Erfolg, if you spent half the time you have spent on making hypothetical arguments against the A certificate, you would have got yourself an A and probably be well on the way to your B. Just read what it says in the BMFA handbook, get yourself a copy of the Examiners notes for the conduct of an A Certificate test (available on-line from the BMFA website) and follow them. You will get your A. As Tony Bennett says above, it's not difficult! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Agree with you Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 With a practical skill there is room for subjective assessment Erf. I can assure you that a pilot who gives me cause to doubt his competence will have provided the necessary evidence! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 It is not an argument against the "A" certificate, it is an aspect that seems to be other than fair. I am not against the certificate, nor particularly in favour of it. although I can see it has practical uses. To me some one who demonstrates all steps are taken in a safe manner, can not be other than demonstrating overall safe operation. That is other than some one is looking for an excuse to fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Whybrow Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Posted by Erfolg on 18/02/2014 20:10:53: To me some one who demonstrates all steps are taken in a safe manner, can not be other than demonstrating overall safe operation. In my opinion, that's what BEB's been saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Martin If some one cannot demonstrate a practical skill, you should be able to state the reasons why. It should not be a prejudice, that I feel.......... that they are not competent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Wasn't that exactly what I said? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Bennett Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 but............ if you cant do it, you cant do it. there should be no excuses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I give up! BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 if you display poor safety procedures your examiner will TELL you this is his reason for failing you not a thought process was your actions, displayed by you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 18/02/2014 20:32:23: I give up! BEB I don't believe he said that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatMc Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Zzzzzzzzzzzzz.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Martin It would seem that I have not been plain enough. If you cannot give a reason, it is a prejudice, without pertinent examples. As to, I should get out and fly more often, More often than not I do get out 4 times a week. I make no claim to be a brilliant flyer. I would claim to be experienced, having flown models on and of for over 30 years. I still fly models which are over 30 years of age. I am in no rush to take the "A" test, for me there is only one reason, which is not a matter of life or death. Perhaps a question to ask, why is it that many members and some clubs have no interest in the achievement scheme. Rather than take the view that those have no interest and or query aspects of the scheme are a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moorer Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Blimey, its only an A certificate............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken anderson. Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 18/02/2014 20:32:23: I give up! BEB ...................................................... .....banging of heads against wall's come's to mind....I'm a club examiner and now reading this is making me have 2nd thought's...... a lot of the stuff I've read is way out of the guidelines etc...... that I stick to..... ken Anderson ne...1 .club examiner's dept...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Posted by Erfolg on 18/02/2014 20:46:46: Martin It would seem that I have not been plain enough. If you cannot give a reason, it is a prejudice, without pertinent examples. Perhaps you'd like to read my posting again before implying that I'm incapable of comprehending written English. What part of "I can assure you that a pilot who gives me cause to doubt his competence will have provided the necessary evidence!" could possibly imply that I won't be giving the candidate a very plain explanation of the reason I'm failing him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John F Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Erfolg, I think you're looking for issues where none yet exist. What you are quoting as the issue is : "its not just specific safety actions the examiner is looking for - it is indeed your whole approach to conducting yourself in a safe" If an examiner thinks that your whole approach is wrong he will say what the issues are. You're looking at it as if it is a sum of parts; safe placing of model -check, safe arming of model -check etc, etc with no point where you could fail yet would do so simply because. If these parts are interluded by bouts of indecision, scratching of head and general bimbling about then the examiner will state that your approach is not conducive to safe flying and will give examples of what he has just seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myron Beaumont Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 well I've been flying for 62 years and I don't want an "A"certificate thank you very much Or insurance for that matter.I fly on 38 acres of 'er indoors's farm .You can all do what you want to conform to the vast amount of regs trying to stop you doing your own thing as you wish . It's a hobby for Gods sake !!Edited By Myron Beaumont on 18/02/2014 21:42:41Edited By Myron Beaumont on 18/02/2014 21:44:46 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myron Beaumont Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Cant edit what I wrote for some reason .BUT I'm back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John F Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Thats all well and good saying that, Myron, but we don't all have 38 acres to our own devices so we have to do our own thing within the confines of also allowing others the same privilege. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myron Beaumont Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 John F .I sould have mentioned that only one acre is good flying territory ,the rest is manoeverable through part of Dalby forest if you're a good flyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparks Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 This thread reminds me of the Monty Python 'Arguments Clinic' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Gorham_ Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Myron, you do realise that part of the BMFA insurance covers you the pilot for personal injury that occurs while you are flying? Let's face it, it is perfectly possible to shove a hand in a prop in a moment of inattention. It could happen to anyone, no matter their length of involvement with the hobby or level of experience. Would you not find it slightly reassuring to have some cover in place for the price of a couple of gallons of glow fuel per year? Going back to the A cert discussion, I am a club examiner. I gained this by taking first the A, then B then the examiners tests, so have been assessed three times and as well as actually being asked to demonstrate safe practise, knowledge of regulations and a certain standard of flying, I also enjoyed taking in the testing process, learning as much as I could to assist me if I was testing flyers in the future. What is the examiner looking for? What does the Examiners Standard booklet require? Can I perform that manoeuvre? Can I do it consistently? I have to say that experience has shown me that my test candidates for the A have all managed the flying part of the test pretty well. And demonstrated that they had practised and thought about prior to taking the test. The one thing that I do find I have to check/clarify on a regular basisbefore the test is the exact form of the figure of 8 manoeuvre, as it seems some candidates want to add an extra circle in the second half of the figure. I have always (so far) had clear grounds to fail candidates. For example, the last candidate flew a perfect test, showed good ground discipline, answered every question I asked thoughtfully and concisely, but did not call "Dead stick" or "Landing" as called for in the test standard. After he completed the entire test I was able to tell him it was perfect apart from the missing call. He realised and took on-board the explanation, seemed reasonably confident that he had done everything else right and the re-took the test perfectly. I always think as an examiner, you have to be able to point to a clear reason why the candidate has not passed. I think the test standard documents are reasonably clear in this area as to what IS required from the candidate. Edited By Alan Gorham 2 on 18/02/2014 22:22:23 Edited By Alan Gorham 2 on 18/02/2014 22:22:36 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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