Transmitter Purchase and Wind Flying

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Chris

welcome to the forum, I like ambition and desire to improve

good luck to you

my only advice is cut length of posts down you're losing flying time

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

I'd say that the only way you become proficient in flying in gusty weather, or recognising that it's too gusty, is just by flying a lot.

The speed that you need to react at has to be totally instinctive, if you have to think, you're too slow.
The only way to hone that instinct, and the required muscle memory, is to practice.

The usual way for a beginner is to practice in less gusty conditions until confident, then step it up just a little.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Sorry Chris - I have said what I can. I don't think that the information you are seeking exists in the form you are looking for it, because the "problem" as you describe it just doesn't exist.

The reality is; you step outside, you sniff the air, if it too windy for you you don't fly. End of. Until you can make that call for yourself you rely on someone else's judgement to make it for you.

Get some more flying in - at least 12 months worth - and I think you'll realise what I mean.

BEB

[Masher]

I decided quite early on in my learning curve that if you don't fly in the wind, you won't get much flying done so I go out in quite rough conditions.

Others in the club will only fly in dead calm - each to his own.

Chris - I can't be bothered to read all your words, life is too short but if it helps, my cue to land is when the wind blows my cap off. Of course it depends how tight the velcro strap is but.......................

You can over think some things

Edited By Masher on 21/03/2014 15:18:14

[Lee Smalley]

And that's why beb never flew at Greenacres, and i flew my jet!!

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Interesting Chris, that you claim that turbulence is not a problem at your field - and then go on to detail what are clearly the effects of turbulence on your model! Sharp edged gusts are caused by air moving vertically in relation to neighbouring volumes - not horizontally.

Please believe BEB and Co. when they tell you that the ability to assess likely conditions on any particular day cannot be an exact science. With quite a few years of experience flying at my club site, I can certainly still be caught out - last Saturday, for example, the wind died off a bit and I decided to give my Dago Red Mustang an airing after flying one or two less vulnerable models earlier - and as soon as I took off I was taken by surprise by some vicious turbulence which, coupled with a rather out of trim model due to it being the first flight on my new transmitter, made me doubt the wisdom of having committed myself to flight...

P.S. I have to admit to skipping the end of your last post - the advice to keep your posts a bit shorter seems well-founded - please don't be offended by it.

Edited By Martin Harris on 21/03/2014 15:36:08

[Chris Anthony]

Well I can't say I'm not disappointed that I couldn't persuade anyone into following my train of thoughts. Perhaps someone will come along at another time who is willing to entertain my way of considering this problem. I shan't push my queries any further as they don't seem to be well received here.

Yes I agree these posts have been long, I'm a bit conscious of that, they won't always be. As someone famous once said in some form, sorry for the long letter, I didn't have time to write a short one. But human interaction with machines is a subject that interests me greatly, and will continue to for as long as I fly I'm sure, just as it does every time I drive.

"You can over think some things" Absolutely I can, as said before, it is one of my flaws. But I'm afraid I struggle to change it.

And please don't make the mistake in thinking that I am typing these responses instead of being outside flying! I sneak these forum replies in during lulls in the working day or when the sun is down

I agree and understand how this intuition will come with practise, and I look forward to recognising signs of gaining this in myself over time. I wasn't hoping to use answers to my questions as substitutions to flying time, rather I wanted to make my flying time more beneficial with enhanced understanding.

If by some chance anyone feels like discussing this subject without wanting to risk polluting the forum with so many words, I'd love to hear from you.

Thanks all,

Chris

[Lee Smalley]

2hrs to put a new model in are you mad, took me 10 mins on my brand new 11x zero when i got it, now it takes 3 or 4 mins, and the instructions from JR are woeful, only my fully comp typhoon glider took 2 hours

[Lee Smalley]

Methinks Chris and the taranis will get on famously

[RichFR]

The Taranis has been fantastic for me as a beginner. I have looked on forums, listened to the advice, watched how to videos and it has prepared me more than I thought it would.
It took time to learn but isn't that what its all about?
I have managed to set up and understand multiple expo/rates, flaps, mixes, telemetry, fail safe and safety throttle switch.
If you are the type to read listen and learn I would highly recommend one. If you need walking through everything the Taranis isn't for you.
I do all the setup on companion 9X so couldn't help much at the field without a laptop anyway

[cymaz]

Chris mate, go and get yourself an instructor that has had plenty of years at it, listen to his every word, fly,fly then fly some more, crash it, fly and learn from experience.

Please don't try and analyse everything to the last degree. Flying is about learning, having fun, gaining experience.

Go and just enjoy it. If you crash it ,LEARN FROM IT.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Lee Smalley on 21/03/2014 15:33:37:
And that's why beb never flew at Greenacres, and i flew my jet!!

For your info Lee -- I have flown at Greenacres - every year its happen mate not just the last couple.

And in case your wondering, the previous post was deleted because personal insults are not allowed in here - as you know.

BEB

[Lee Smalley]

what personal insult BEB, I totally disagree, there was no insult in there, the last bit was followed with a smiley face, therefore it is widely accepted on this forum that this indicates a joke, show me where the personal insult is in that post, come on be fair and show everyone.

the point being made is that the main problem with people like yourself (that are seen by some as respected and experienced) coming on here, and extolling the virtues without raising other issues that this can cause, like a newbie turning up to the patch with one of the taranis without a clue how to drive it. as with every new tech there are pros and cons.

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 21/03/2014 20:15:49

[WolstonFlyer]

Don't forget we all get the email trail of this thread (if you have chosen to subscribe)

Anyway- I agree that a complete beginner turning up with a Taranis and giving it to an instructor saying ' set this up please' should be met with the answer 'you need to learn how that works if you want to fly', but that should apply to any other computer based TX. The instructor should be willing to do the basic flight trimming etc but not setup the whole model and all of the settings on any TX they happen to be handed. This is how our club instructors approach this.

[Lee Smalley]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 21/03/2014 12:25:59:

Posted by Lee Smalley on 21/03/2014 10:07:29:
The frsky taranis and other open source software tx are for me a pain in the preverbial unless you are prepared to spend large amounts of time learning how to program it, i am sick of newbies turning up to the patch with these things because some programmer on a forum told them to and then they expect me the instructor to spend god knows how long trying to figure out how to reverse and add dual rates to a channel, i go to fly not spend ages trying to sort some newbies tx out just so he can have one flight, and then who is he gonna buddy box with?? If your an experienced flyer and you enjoy getting involved in programming then that's fine, but as a newbie looking to join a club and be taught how to fly properly i would look at a more mainstream radio, personally i would go for hitec aurora, best bang for buck out there... Ps i am a JR man

Lee - try removing the word "Taranis" and substitute "2.4" or even "proportional control"! remind you of anything?

As to the question "who are they going to buddy with?" - Well Taranis is the only transmitter I am aware of that can buddy with Futaba, Spektrum, JR or even Hi-tech.

You can't hold back progress mate! Imagine if everyone had taken the same position when Spektrum Tx's started to appear on 2.4GHz?

I've been playing with the Taranis for 2 months - it took me an hour or two to put my first model in - not bad for a new Tx - it would probably take me the same to put my first model into say a JR which I'm not very familiar with. Since then I've added many more - and each time it gets easier. After an entire R/C career on Futaba I've just started putting my FASST RX's on eBay - I'm that impressed.

My experience is that Taranis is not difficult to program - I think that's a bit of an urban myth to be honest. It is different to program that's true. But I believe that's something we're just going to have to learn to live with. OpenTX is here to stay. And just to really put the cat among the pidgeons I'll make a prediction for you - in 5 years time you'll struggle to buy a Tx that isn't running OpenTx or a clone of it. Basically it has the potential to be "windows for transmitters". And before the Mac and Linux users start getting excited - say what you will about Windows, yes it does have its faults, but it has brought interoperable computing to the mass market.

So I think we need to get used to OpenTx - because it isn't going away anytime soon.

BEB

right i will reply to this again without the joke,

firstly i was one of the first to move to 2.4 gig so i am never against progress but it has to make things better for me, so to infer that i am somehow against progression just because i do not get on with the taranis is way off the mark, you yourself make some comment regarding windows, and you are bang on the money here the whole reason windows has won over from linux is the graphical interface, it has made it so much easier to use, that even my mum can work one, you have totally made my point for me regarding the flexible but clunky open source software in the taranis against the more expensive more limiting but easier to use aurora

secondly a bog standard model should only take 10 mins to set up on a new tx not 2 hours, lets give a newbie a taranis tx and a hitec aurora and lets see who is first to set a model up, i know where my money is,

the programming may not be difficult for you, but it is for me , maybe its because i am a working practical instrument engineer that i struggle with it, maybe i just can't be bothered but either way it is not something i want to spend time learning, so i go for something else,

and you may be right that open source tx is the way forward, but it will have to get a lot more intuitive and easier to use before i buy into it .

i am all for reviewing it and recommending it but make sure you take all pros and cons into account and make people aware of them not just the pros, because it suits you!

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Chris Anthony on 21/03/2014 15:37:06:

Well I can't say I'm not disappointed that I couldn't persuade anyone into following my train of thoughts. Perhaps someone will come along at another time who is willing to entertain my way of considering this problem. I shan't push my queries any further as they don't seem to be well received here.

Chris,

Perhaps you should ask your question again in a clear and simple way that some of us intellectually challenged folk can understand. Personally, I thought it had been answered rather comprehensively but I must have missed the point somewhere...

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

I'd say Lee that if a beginner didn't arrive at a club with some new tech, then there's every chance that the club would never move on from being stuck with the old tech it's used to.

Give Taranis a chance. Yes it's different, but I'd say it's easier to get it to do exactly what you want with it than many other transmitters, where often you have to go along with the way a manufacturer decides he wants you to do it.

Keeping away from the complex powerful features there are simply three pages to the programming:

1) A Sticks screen, usually set up by default when you start a new model. Here you set up the 4 basic gimbal controls with rates, expo etc and which switches operate rates expo etc. and more.

2) A mixes screen. Every control needs a mix, to connect a stick, switch, or slider - to a servo output. Nothing works without a mix but you can have as many mixes as you want to each servo, all switchable if you wish, and working in whichever flight mode you wish.

3) A servo screen, where centres, end points and the like are set up.

I find it very refreshing that I can make the Tx do exactly what I want and nothing but what I want.

For example, for electric models I have a throttle cut switch, but this is programmed so that when I apply the cut, it cuts immediately, but when enabling the throttle channel again, it doesn't start up until the throttle stick has been to the bottom first. Thus preventing a motor start up just by switching the cut switch.

If you want to set a model up quickly, two choices. Apply a template, or copy an existing model. The work of seconds. And all of this doesn't even take into account that it can be done even easier on the PC, tested on the PC and then loaded into the Tx if that floats your boat.

[Lee Smalley]

in many ways Chris i am totally with you, who does not want a more flexible tx, but you are slightly missing my point

beginners generally dont turn up with new kit, more often than not its the more experienced member who does, but if a newbies does then thats fine as well........ wait for it......... as long as it makes things easier... let me describe my experience and then you might get what i am getting at.

imagine if you will a mad busy day at the patch, learners are 10 deep and i have not even had chance to fly my own stuff for instructing, then some guy turns up having paid his money with a tx that he has not a clue how to drive, and guess what no one else does either, and he expects me to do it for him,

i would not mind mate we only needed to reverse some servos and add dual rates!! the lad in question spent the entire day sat in the caravan trying to figure it out!! while everyone else was flying

i have no problem with the taranis or any other OS tx as long as the owner has the required knowledge to set the model up quickly, but this issue seems not to get a mention in the mag, ps this is not just limited to this type of tx, some guy turned up to the patch with an F5D model (200+mph hotliner) last week and he expected me to set it all up for him and fly it thankfully someone else knew the DX7 and did it for him (minus the crow brakes) we would not have had a chance had it been OS tx.

ps i totally agree with the bit about "many other transmitters, where often you have to go along with the way a manufacturer decides he wants you to do it." the Japanese do have a strange logic at times

as i have said a few times chris if this sort of thing interests you and you do not mind playing with it a bit then the taranis should be brilliant, i would however be very reluctant to recommend it to a newbie.

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

OK fair point Lee.

The general advice (and I don't need to tell you) is to recommend a newbie to buy gear that matches that of whoever will be instructing him.

In this case though, the OP seems very capable, keen, and able to do things for himself. He's also adept at getting help from a forum. So I think, especially as he has no stock of receivers to match to, Taranis would be a very good choice.

[Simon Chaddock]

Chris

As Martin pointed out your description of your planes behaviour is exactly what you would expect from turbulence and it must be coming from somewhere.

Turbulence can continue for quite a distance down wind (hundreds if not thousands of metres) and depending on the weather conditions can even 'grow' from quite a small initial object.

My own flat field site has specific wind directions that create noticeable turbulence. You just have to learn the what, when and where.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

You make several good points Lee - I too have been there, learners everywhere, your model in corner not being flown because you're too busy helping them.

But TBH what I do then - if a model isn't set up right (controls reversed or throws all wrong etc.) is I just explain to them what they need to change and say I'll come back in 15 mins when they have done that. If they say "I don't know how to do that" Well frankly I just point at all the other learners who have bothered to read their manual and at least learnt the basics of how to program their Tx and are now waiting to fly having done their homework and advise them to do the same.

I really don't feel its my job to teach them how to basically program their Tx - sure I'll give them help if I can - and I'll certainly advice what values they should set to. But I don't see it as my job to be a substitute for the manual they haven't read! As you say, most days instructors are just too busy for that.

BEB

[Lee Smalley]

yeah totally agree guys, i think i have to absorb some of the blame, maybe its the engineer in me but i hate getting beat by a problem, and rather than just bat him off, i ended up spending nearly an hour messing with his tx.

but when they look at you like a puppy dog it is hard to shoo them away LOL

totally agree the OP and the taranis i think are made for each other,

dont anyone think i am slagging the tx off from a reliability or flexibility point of view, i am not, its just not really my type of thing, although i dare say when i am sat in the pits struggling to do something with tx someone will remind me of this !!

[Chris Anthony]

Morning guys,

So I got in a good weekend's worth of flying, as I'm sure many of you did. I have noticed a fair bit of progress in myself already, especially this morning when it was really calm. I think I might try and get some up-to-date footage of my flying to post up here, to get some feedback from you guys in the next week or so in-line with progress towards A cert test.

Martin, I'm not quite sure how to make my questions simpler at the moment. For the time being I think I'll let those questions slip under the radar until I've got some more flying time under my belt. I'll keep thinking about what I was trying to say whilst flying, and if after I've got a bit better it hasn't started to sound like complete rubbish, I might try to re-phrase and re-ask then. For the record, I don't consider anyone here as 'intellectually challenged', and I don't think that you really consider yourself in that light either. I've already read a lot of your posts whilst having a trawl through the forum and you seem to know your stuff.

Martin/Steve, it's clear that I have got my wind terminology all muddled. Could you describe "sharp-edged" gusts to me in some detail? I had to google the phrase, and could only find links to some pretty deep textbooks/research papers. If I understand what you were saying correctly, these are caused by turbulence?

It is very possible that I am experiencing turbulence in my field, if it is true that the effects of these can be seen HUNDREDS of metres from the cause. I will keep this thought in mind when flying and see if I spot any trends.

And so onto transmitters.

I've researched all the models mentioned so far. First off, I must say it is clear that I have a lot to learn with regards to the capabilities of these high-end transmitters and all the functions they can perform. I must admit that the phrase "programming" intimidates me in most situations, and I am still unsure of what it means in the application of TX's.

1. What exactly is involved in TX "programming"? Is it in the basic form, of entering some kind of code? Or is it just following on-screen GUI menu's prompts on the TX in order to complete calibration of various parameters? (Chris - your description was pretty useful here I must admit, but I think I require a bit more on a "higher level".

2. Do TX suppliers provide sufficient instructions for this "programming" process, or is it something I will have to learn on my own? (Lee, from what you have said, the latter is implied?)

3. Are there any good threads on this forum that will help me on this subject?

A problem I have is, having looked at both the Taranis and the Aurora, I currently cannot tell the difference between them in terms of functions. Even though you have said that the Aurora is simpler/easy to use Lee, it is around £40 more expensive?

BEB, could you tell me exactly why you recommended the Taranis or the DX8? I am wondering whether a DX7 will meet my needs just as effectively, or whether I might just go to DX9? Wolston, I have noted that you that you thought the Taranis was better than even the DX9.

RichFR, your recommendation is very valuable as a recent beginner. I'm afraid I do not yet know what you mean by "multiple expo/rates, flaps, mixes, telemetry, fail safe and safety throttle switch"

4. Can anyone recommend a source of reading material that will make these terms clear, or have a go at explaining them?

In summary, at the moment, I am swaying towards the Taranis. But I am conscious of becoming that "all the gear but no idea" newbie that Lee has mentioned, only in forum form. I am unlikely to share this problem at my local flying field, and more likely to puzzle with it at home on my own before I expose myself to a club. In the same way, I am currently not letting a potential instructor's TX choice affect my own for buddying, I plan to have solo experience with the first aircraft I use this TX on (likely to be some form of WOT4) before getting to my club.

Edited By Pete B - Moderator on 24/03/2014 10:18:53

[cymaz]

If you buy a Spektrum of Futaba or any other Tx, try reading the manual that comes with it. If there are any issues that you don't grasp then you need to ask.

You will pick up more and some of the Tx terminology as you go - you're trying to run before you can walk at the moment mate. Your instructor will put you right over the coming months, don't worry.

Edited By cymaz on 24/03/2014 11:28:00

[John F]

Chris, again, I don't think there is any explanation to be had for "sharp gusts", it simply is a day with stronger gusts that arrive unexpected.

You say that you got another weekend flying in. Reading your posts you don't mention that you have a club or an instructor. Is this you in a flying club, using their transmitters and planes or is it just a few folk in a farmers field somewhere?

The reason why I ask is that the normal advice regarding your transmitter is to buy one that is compatible with the Tx of the instructor so you can buddy lead with them. There is no point in bringing a Tx that is all singing and dancing but is incapable of easily setting up a buddy with an instructor.

Programing is simply changing settings within the menu on the Tx. I htink Chris Bott adequately described what he could in a generic way. Anything more detailed needs a Tx in your hand of a specific model but they don't need prgramming computer skills. Most Tx's come with instructions.