Transmitter Purchase and Wind Flying

[Chris Anthony]

If you're reading this in follow up to my Newbie thread, thanks for coming over.

If you're not, Hi I'm Chris, my Newbie thread is here (http://www.modelflying.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=94067#1605742), please have a read

I have two sets of questions, one regarding hardware (TX), one regarding flying tips. Mods, if these need to be split into seperate sections of the forum, please let me know.

__________________________

So as you all know I'm planning to buy a WOT4 as my first IC aircraft in a month or so. I currently fly an Ares Gamma 370.

1. I suppose my first question is, can I use my Gamma radio gear in the WOT? I will have to confirm manufacturer/model of the TX/RX unit/post pics, but functions/limitations are as follows:

- 2.4GHz
- 6-ch
- Trim for the 4 proportional control channels
- Two switches for flaps/gear
- 'Action-reverse switches'

Limitations:
- No way of adjusting control rates (is this a TX function?)
- No simulation/buddy lead output

Using this TX for the WOT would not be ideal for me, as I would like to have a TX with sim output so I can practise on PC before getting a WOT4 up for real. But, if I had to, could this TX/RX package be used on the WOT without problems?

2. Secondly, if I was to upgrade radio gear, how do you guys suggest I make this decision? I appreciate questions like these are always hard to answer, as they depend on individual circumstances. So to word it another way, what additional functions do I need to be aware of before making my choice? The only additional functions I have a need for at the moment are of course, sim and buddy lead outputs. Can you recommend any good articles/reading sources for TX purchase? I would like to keep the radio gear for as long as possible, and for it to be versatile enough for most aircraft I'm ever likely to fly, as is the case with most people I think. What are TX limitations when it comes to certin models/flying types, other than number of channels? As an initial comment, I could set aside £200 for a suitable TX/RX combo.

Edited By Chris Anthony on 20/03/2014 12:52:09

[Chris Anthony]

____________________

My second set of questions ask for flying advice with regards to the wind.

I have been flying rather intensively (almost every day) over the last 3 weeks.
In some cases, the conditions have been less than ideal, I have learnt some hard lessons already.
In some cases, I have found I have launched myself into too gusty conditions, where I have not been able to control
the landing, and minor damage has occurred as a result.
In one case, the gusts were so strong, the 742 glider wing section managed to permanently deform in mid-air due to
vertical "heave" of the craft when caught by a gust.
In another case, a wing snapped in mid-air, when a gust caught the 742 whilst looping.

Of course, some of these lessons could have been "taught" by instructor.
But having seen them (and paid for them) in person, I am now far less likely to repeat them, and can recognise with more caution when conditions are similar in the future.

The strongest gusts I have been out in, according to windfinder.com, have been 34 knots, with a "constant" speed of 16 knots. I have not verified this at the field yet, but I have an anemometer arriving tomorrow for this purpose. I have no problem flying in a constant wind, and actually find it easy to "hover" the craft into the wind if I need to plan a route or think about something mid-air. It is the unpredictable gustiness I struggle with.

The previous is all to describe how my following questions have been formed by my experience so far.

1. So firstly, how do you guys establish whether it is "too windy/too gusty" for you to fly?
Do you quantify this somehow, either using weather predictions online, or readings at the field?
If so, what are your peronal steady-state wind limits, and how do you quantify the gusts?
Will you just record peak gust values, or take into account how often the wind changes speed too (perhaps noting a frequency of some kind)?
Or, will you just let your buddies go up first and decide for yourself based on whether they wreck or not?!
I appreciate this may be model dependent, so please give model details too.

This query is based around my desire to know whether my personal wind limitations are reasonable or not. I would like to know how far my limits are from you guys. I have assumed that my Gamma is more susceptible to wind than some larger models may be, it's large profile and 0.5kg weight being responsible for that.

Now, here comes the set-up to my final questions. Let's take the example of an approach to a landing.

As I know you have all experienced, in strong gusts, the plane can easily dip/raise a wing, or drop/climb vertically within miliseconds (I have not yet experienced wind-induced pitching on approach). I have seen my aircraft drop up to a metre when wind conditions change, even with as quick a reaction from me as I feel is physically possible. This could happen anywhere, from 100m high, to half a metre from the ground (assuming field is open enough). The latter situation of course having the worst consequences.

2. So, what is there a pilot can do in these situations?
What I am doing at the moment, is reacting to these gusts when they occur, and minimising the dropping of the aircraft/dipping of the wing by being 'reactive' only.
But in some conditions, a change in flight path still results, or worse, an uncontrolled drop in altitude.
I am not being 'anticipative', other than being alert, and making sure I am focussed enough to spot when a quick correction is needed. I am not being 'anticipative' in a control/systems engineering sense.

3. I would like to establish whether there is any way that I/any pilot can be anticipative in gusty conditions?
Are there tell tale signs of an impending gust, that can be spotted before their action on the plane is noticed?
Can I fly an approach in a different way in gusty conditions, say, a steeper descent?
Or am I doing all I can do by reacting to the planes. The only thing a pilot can be is reactive to gusts?
And to get better, I must improve reaction times, and ensure my consistency in employing the right corrective momvement every time is near 100%.

4. If the above is so, do you guys think that you (all pilots) judge your limit of comfort in gusty conditions by the quantifiable displacements of the plane during gusts?
ie - if it drops more than, say, its own height in the air (30cm) before you can react in time, or if it banks more than 20 degrees before you can correct with aileron, will you consider these conditions too gusty?
Perhaps these values are approximate, and established subconscious, but in your head you still recognise them as indicators that the conditions are too gusty for your liking?

______________________________

That's all (!) I would like to know at the moment. If you've read and understood it all, great job!

And if you feel like replying to any of the questions, I'd be very grateful.

Thanks,

Chris

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

Hi Chris, you may confuse folk by asking the same question on more than one thread.
For the Tx question, I refer to the answer I just typed on your earlier thread.

For reading material, there's a great article on the FrSky Taranis in the April copy of RCM&E (OK I wrote it )
It's within your budget, and will do everything you need of a Tx for a very long time to come.

On the wind question, part of being a great pilot is knowing when not to fly. Also knowing the capabilities of your model, and of yourself. Experience helps you judge these things, so at the beginning it's probably best to avoid gusty conditions all together.

I think the weather will be the thing you find most frustrating in your quest to progress. But we just can't do anything about it.

[cymaz]

Telling you how to react to wind conditions is hard to do. Try to explain to someone how to balance when riding a bicycle.

Not trying to be flippant but your knowledge will come as you fly and your reactions to wind conditions will come with experience and stick time.

Knowing when not to fly is a real art. If you don't think it's safe to fly, then don't. As the pilot YOU are responsible for each flight and the safety of each flight. It is not being a kill joy if you don't think it's safe. It's being a responsible pilot, there is more time lost in repairs or looking for a lost model and the cost. Not to mention the possible insurance claim through a crashed flight.

A good instructor will also guide you on when not to fly, heed his advice.

[David Holland 2]

There is a saying in full size aviation that goes " It is better being down here wishing you were up there than up there wishing you were down here." smiley face thing!

David.

[Frank Skilbeck]

As regards the wind, what is no good for a light weight electric trainer is manna from heaven for a slope soarer (e.g. wildthing would be great to learn on).

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

You are asking us to write down the results of 20years experience ina 500 word post Chris. Some of your questions would take a very very long time to answer - and even then I'm not sure the answer would be of much use to you!

The question of the wind: well it depends so much on the model, the exact nature of the wind, the level of your experience, any special characteristics of the flying site - such as the presence of downdrafts and rotors etc. - its impossible to generalise. Perhaps the best I can say is - if you feel difficulty in controlling the model with reasonable precision and you running the risk of damage then the conditions are too windy for you. I know that may not be very helpful but its hard to see how to be more specific. Most beginners depend on their instructor for guidance on this issue - and the instructor uses a combination of his experience and his knowledge of the pupil's flying ability. There are beginners I would take up in some wind conditions - while I'd advise against it for others.

On radio gear - well you say you are in this for the "long haul" in that case get the best you can afford. In your position I would look at either a Taranis or Spektrum DX8. In my opinion the Taranis would be the better of the two for you.

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 20/03/2014 15:48:30

[Paul Marsh]

And also trying to do too much in too short of a time will put you off. Just let it flow!

[Chris Anthony]

Thanks for the replies chaps. I'll get onto the TX recommendations later tonight, for the moment though it's the wind flying subject that has got my attention.

First off, David I love that quote, and can definitely sympathize with both feelings, even after only 3 weeks!

Everyone who said knowing when to fly or not is an art, yes I can see what you mean. Or maybe it is a behaviour, learned from experience. In which case, I suppose you are saying that it's something I can only learn through my own personal experience; it can't be sufficiently taught (although advice can be offered). This I understand.

cymaz, I like your riding a bicycle analogy. And to you and Biggles, yes I understand how my questions are almost pointless. I do understand that there are subtleties to any skill that an experienced practiser possesses. Sometimes he may not even be aware he is demonstrating them, so asking him to teach them to someone else is futile. After all the talk, there is no substitution for practice.

______________

But what I was trying to get at is a break-down of what you think makes a pilot best handle the unpredictableness of the wind, gusts specifically.

To expand, I would say the bicycle analogy is not completely representative, in that the operating conditions are always constant. I can see how learning to land your plane in a field in constant wind conditions (high, low or zero) is akin to learning how to ride a bike. Your mind must become accustomed to the "system's" (bike or plane/controller) responses to your control inputs (arms moving handlebars and body leaning, or fingers moving sticks). With the plane, you use visual outputs of the plane in terms of its orientation/speed to assess it's response to your initial inputs, and adjust control input accordingly. With the bike, you are also assessing it's orientation and trajectory visually, and perhaps are using inner ear sensory outputs to assess acceleration/impending falls. This is of course the basic idea of closed-loop control, with the human in the system. In both cases, the responses follow a pattern, and after time you will know by second-nature how much input is required to return either system to a desired state. These responses are fundamentally based on physical properties of each system; mass and inertias of the bike and plane, along with control force/moment sizes from control surfaces and tyres etc, and so will not change. This second nature knowledge may be knowing how much handlebar input and lean is required to stop your bike tipping over but also remain on a straight path, or knowing how much finger movement is required on the rudder stick to maintain the plane's desired trajectory on approach.

The problem with adding gusty wind into either situation, is that it is unpredictable. I would say, the problem of landing a plane in gusty wind is akin to trying to ride a bike along a single line painted on a pavement in a gusty wind wearing an umbrella on your head. Let's create a fictional scenario though, where instead of one line for the bike rider to follow, he has been given two lines he must ride between, one foot apart, a margin of error. In our example, this fictional task we have given to the rider is to keep the bike between these two lines. This is more akin to the pilot's task of landing the plane in gusty winds. The plane can of course drop a little during landing, or bank a little due to cross wind, but how much is too much? The task of the pilot is of course to keep the plane on his chosen approach path, within this margin of error. To continue our hypothetical situation, if the pilot does not achieve this task, within some margin of error, the plane is wrecked. If the bike rider should fail his task, let's just say the he owes someone a pint.

In both above cases, let's say both the pilot and the rider have their respective system's responses in calm conditions ingrained in their subconscious. We have a "good" pilot, and a "good" bike rider, top of their respective leagues. Now, they are disturbed from their "trimmed-states", either the plane on it's approach or the bike in the middle of the two lines is moved by an instantaneous gust. When that disturbing force goes away, the pilot and rider both know how to quickly recover the plane or bike to its original state. But in that split second of external disturbance, the bike could either have been blown 3cm away from one of the lines, or it could have been blown outside of one of the lines, and the rider would be down a pint.

When the rider continues to carry out this competition day after day, he realises he owes lots of people pints on windy days. After more practise, he begins to recognise that when the winds are past a certain recognisable level, he always gets blown across the lines and loses the bet, no matter how well he can control the bike, nor how fast he can react. He has found his wind limit, based on his margin of error.

Likewise, the plane may have been disturbed only slightly (let's say a bank angle of 10 degrees is caused by a cross wind) but with no real consequence, or it may have been blown so hard that the wings have dipped past 30 degrees before the pilot can react, causing a dig in and a damaged aircraft. At some point in your piloting careers, you will have seen the consequences of "too much wind" on your aircraft, by recognising behaviours like these which you cannot recover from (too much bank angle, or too much vertical descent with gusts).

Edited By Chris Anthony on 20/03/2014 19:20:39

[Chris Anthony]

So what I am trying to get at is, for you guys as pilots, what is your measure of error, like the one-foot distance between the bike rider's lines he has to follow. Measures of error that, if the current wind conditions cause you to exceed, allow you to determine whether or not you can confidently control the aircraft?

_______________

TL;DR, if I could add two slightly different questions, they would be these:

1. How exactly do you know when it is too windy for you, personally?

2. Can you describe the differences between a) weather that you would be less comfortable, but confident to fly in, and b) weather that is above your comfort threshold, in which you would be absolutely not confident flying in? Do you recognise these differences in behaviour of the plane (how much it falls, banks in wind gusts), or in the weather itself (i.e. how fast the wind "sounds", or how much the trees move)?

Or, is the simple answer that you just never know, and even when you think you are comfortable and confident with the plane in the current conditions, you may be wrong, and it is still perfectly possible to lose control in these conditions?

_______________

Anyway, I hope that wasn't too needlessly complex/wordy to get my point across. And I am worried that I have again made no sense, if this is so then I am sorry.

Biggles, in further response, I'd love for you to have a crack at explaining, even if you think the answer won't be very much use to me. If anything, it will help me 'know what i don't know'.

Finally, Frank, sorry but when you say "manna from heaven for a slope soarer", does this mean that the wind is great for slope soaring? If so, yes I can see how it would be good. Does this apply for both constant, steady winds and unpredictable gusts?

I've been grounded tonight, due to gusts that I am 100% sure will put me out of my comfort zone, and rain, so I look forward to your responses once more

Thanks again all,

Chris

Edited By Chris Anthony on 20/03/2014 19:21:09

[John F]

Chris, I think BEB kinda explained it; you cannot write down and learn from 20 years of written flying experience. You can learn basics and understand the basics but, then again, if you could learn to fly purely from written word the A cert test would be a written exam, not a practical experience. Knowing that to turn left you push the stick left isn't the same as experiencing the pushing of the stick.

Whilst the bike analogy is not 100% accurate the analogy still works on the basic level; you adjust speed and angles of turn / straight travel depending upon current speed, current angle of bank so that you go where you want to go, adjusting constantly to forces that act upon you.  This equally applies to the bike and the model.

What others have said I would echo, although I am a newbie after being away from flying for a fair few years, the ability to fly in various wind conditions are based upon the models abilities and your own ability. If one could not fly in the manner that was wanted and feel that the model is beginning to travel out of their ability to control, then that would be the time to call it a day. You can't put a measure on that of x metres outside the intended line.

Before my flying hiatus I was fairly happy with the odd gust, adjusting as I went, it was the determined windy days, where I had to master the use of rudder to keep straight, that had me flummoxed and feeling as if I was not in control. It meant landings were always an arrival rather than anything to be proud of and my nerves would be in tatters but the instructor kept me going.

I think that is the real key - fly with an instructor. You will learn more in ten minutes of flying than all week reading about flying.

Edited By John F on 20/03/2014 19:52:16

[cymaz]

+ 1 John F

[WolstonFlyer]

Wow you write long posts Chris!

I am learning to fly with various instructors at our club and in more and more windy conditions. I got myself a cheap foam model, an AXN Clouds Fly from HobbyKing and I go up to the field with a bag full of Lipo's and have a fly with my buddies.

The other day I had the AXN with nose into wind on 3/4 throttle and it was "hovering" on the spot at about 200ft. It was quite a blustery day so the constant changing wind direction and strength meant that I had to be very quick on the sticks to keep the model under control!

In short it was one of the best flying lessons I have ever had and great fun My instructor that day has about 35 years model flying experience and he had a go with my AXN and found it quite a handful in the conditions, this made me feel quite good!

As far as knowing when it is too windy that is easy. I look at the trees blowing about and the club windsock and decide if I think it is safe to have a go with the size and weight of model I have. Also generally speaking if it is too windy there will be nobody else at the field or perhaps only one of the glider boys with a 2m glider up just at visible height.

Edited By WolstonFlyer on 20/03/2014 20:38:42

[WolstonFlyer]

Oh I forgot to say I have a Spektrum DX9 and a FrSky Taranis transmitter, they are both very good but there is quite a price difference.

The Taranis does much more than the DX9 at half the price, I wish I had bought it first! I also fly Blade Helicopters so need a spekky TX anyway and they should both last a very long time.

[Jez Harris 1]

Hi,

Re flying in the wind -

It really comes down to 2 questions...

No 1 - Can you 100% guarantee that your skills will ensure the flight can be made 100% safely in respect to other people, property or aircraf?. If not - you dont fly.

This will depend on location, wind direction, strength and the type of aircraft being flown.

No 2 - The aircraft being flown - If you can be absolutely certain that criteria N0.1 are met, then is your aircraft disposable if you do get it wrong? - If not then dont fly - if it is then go ahead and try!

There is no safe margin as per your riding between the line scenario - Even the best pilot can only react in a certain time frame - If you are comitted to a landing, throttled back and just starting to flare 6 " from the ground and BAM!! the Wind gusts to 30+mph from the side of the aircraft, flipping you, you will be unlikely to get the power on, wings flat and recover..

What you can do now will change as your skill /experience increases - for now its best to err on the side of caution and wait for better daysuntil then - your description of the damage caused to your aircraft suggests you are pushing it - unless money is no option?

Jez

Edited By Jez Harris 1 on 20/03/2014 21:24:32

[Chris Anthony]

Thanks again for the replies all.

Yeah I guess I'm trying to get too technical and focus on defining things that aren't important, it's one of my flaws. If anyone does want to add comments and get a bit technical on what they consider to be "too windy" then I'd still love to hear it, please don't let this response stop you!

"There is no safe margin as per your riding between the line scenario - Even the best pilot can only react in a certain time frame - If you are comitted to a landing, throttled back and just starting to flare 6 " from the ground and BAM!! the Wind gusts to 30+mph from the side of the aircraft, flipping you, you will be unlikely to get the power on, wings flat and recover.."

Thanks for this Jez, this response is closest to what I had in mind. There is always an element of risk, even in seemingly calm conditions, even for the best pilots. And assessing whether it is "safe weather" to fly is an educated guess based on prior experiences in similar conditions with a similar model. Now I see where instructor tuition can be of benefit.

I still feel there is some kind of equivalent margin of error, margin of safety, or margin of confidence that could be established, based on a model's responses to varying disturbances (this is how stability is defined) that is either consciously or subconsciously created/recognised by a pilot. But perhaps I am not good enough at describing this idea, so it is for another time.

In response to your additional comments Jez, firstly I would say that in all of my cases your requirement No.1 was always met, I would ensure there was 0% risk of damage/injury to third parties. I have set aside a fair bit of money for spares, accepting that I was likely to have a few mishaps to begin with, perhaps this knowledge made me more liberal than I should have been. I would fly in cases of wind that I thought would be challenging, and I think to a point this has to be done in order to find your limits and improve (of course as long as only risk to your craft is present). I know for sure that my first launch, even in rather calm conditions was "out of my comfort zone" - I was nervous as hell! But it had to be done in order to progress.

Anyway, in the specific cases I mentioned above, the damage actually occurred mostly due to ignorance, rather than knowingly flying out of my comfort zone. I was genuinely surprised when I saw wings bend and snap in mid-air without any ground contact, I had been flying rather comfortably up until those points. Here I learnt that wind strength tests the aircraft's capabilities as well as the pilot's, and I have since respected that.

Thanks again for the replies folks, keep them coming.

Chris

[avtur]

The Ares Gamma is an "all in one box offering" providing a simple and speedy entry point to r/c flying. I haven't seen one flying but there are some favourable reviews on YouTube. Although I have had a good look at one on the shop counter (in fact nearly bought one for a nephew - but it took me into a different range of li-po’s). >>

The main thought that springs to mind in terms of flying in wind is that this is a 37inch span foamy weighing in at around 16 ounces, I’d say it just isn't a model for windy days. I'm not sure if it's the 3 or 4 channel version (the 4 channel is called the 370 - Pro) it comes with a basic 4 channel Tx (as you'd expect at this price point of £100 – ish all in), it doesn't have an AS3X type stabilisation system so there is no assistance in dealing with the buffeting that it will get in anything other than a gentle breeze; it’s all down to the pilot. >>

It certainly looks like a good starting point, if you want to go the one box route, but I think a certain amount of patience may be required so that it is used in conditions that are suitable for it. >>

With regards the radio system it was pointed out to me that the system is removable and transferrable to other smaller models but it was described as a “park flyer” set up, not a full range so that’s something to keep in mind if wanting to use the gear elsewhere. It is a 2.4 ghz system but as might be expected it has no compatibility with any other system. >>

A good little flyer … in the right conditions. >>

Would have to agree with others regarding experience over the written word when it comes to learning about the flying skills. A copy of Phoenix Flight Sim is probably well worth it given the blustery weather at this time of year. >>

 

Edited By avtur on 20/03/2014 23:44:19

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Chris Anthony on 20/03/2014 19:15:26:

So what I am trying to get at is, for you guys as pilots, what is your measure of error, like the one-foot distance between the bike rider's lines he has to follow. Measures of error that, if the current wind conditions cause you to exceed, allow you to determine whether or not you can confidently control the aircraft?

1. How exactly do you know when it is too windy for you, personally?

2. Can you describe the differences between a) weather that you would be less comfortable, but confident to fly in, and b) weather that is above your comfort threshold, in which you would be absolutely not confident flying in? Do you recognise these differences in behaviour of the plane (how much it falls, banks in wind gusts), or in the weather itself (i.e. how fast the wind "sounds", or how much the trees move)?

Or, is the simple answer that you just never know, and even when you think you are comfortable and confident with the plane in the current conditions, you may be wrong, and it is still perfectly possible to lose control in these conditions?

BEB has touched on this towards the beginning of the thread but assessment of flying conditions is something intuitive based on experience. Experience is measured in crashes and "brown trouser" moments and can't be taught.

Failing guidance from those with the scars, the best bet is to fly as much as possible in conditions that you feel may possibly be challenging but not much more so than when you've flown in them successfully in the past.

Bottom line is that in order to gain experience, you need to push your limits in a sensible manner. Find out how your site is affected by different strength winds in different directions, estimate how unpredictable gusts may be by observation before committing to aviation and be prepared to make some repairs when you get the learning process a little wrong!

Hard work, maybe but ultimately rewarding and a major reason why this hobby continues to intrigue the committed enthusiast.

[Simon Chaddock]

Chris

You really need to distinguish the differing effects of wind, gusts and turbulence.

Once in the air wind speed itself is not the real problem except if it is above the maximum speed of the plane you will always end up down wind somewhere! For example slope soaring continues in wind speeds that would stop most flying. The fact to be aware of is that ground surface itself will slow the wind down close to it so this effect need to be considered as you come into land.

Gusts are caused by atmospheric conditions and results is significant short term changes in wind speed and direction. They will make the plane move in unexpected directions and place extra loads on the plane during the transition.

Turbulence is random air movement usually as a result of bluff shaped ground objects. The bigger the object the greater the area of turbulence. Turbulence tends cause the air to locally rotate so a plane (particularly a small one) will try follow the air flow. Turbulence can put a great strain on the airframe. With sufficient height the plane will fly through it and resume normal flight but close to the ground a crash is very likely. In general the bigger and heavier the plane the less it will be effected by turbulence.

What I am trying to show is that there is no hard and fast rule. There are just too many variables which is why experience (and advice from others on whether it is safe to fly) is the only solution.

[Keith Evans 3]

Chris

What worked for me was to pick a forecasted windy day at my flying site and go there early in the morning. In my area winds are quite low in the morning and build up to their maximum forecasted speed by about four in the afternoon. I then fly at regular intervals during the day ,say every hour with the wind steadily increasing until I find the flight that was just about in my capabilities. At this stage I make a note of the trees the windsock and any other marker that will give an indication of the conditions . I only have a stable of six planes and I now know which are more suited to windy rather than calm conditions. Hope this helps .

[Lee Smalley]

The frsky taranis and other open source software tx are for me a pain in the preverbial unless you are prepared to spend large amounts of time learning how to program it, i am sick of newbies turning up to the patch with these things because some programmer on a forum told them to and then they expect me the instructor to spend god knows how long trying to figure out how to reverse and add dual rates to a channel, i go to fly not spend ages trying to sort some newbies tx out just so he can have one flight, and then who is he gonna buddy box with?? If your an experienced flyer and you enjoy getting involved in programming then that's fine, but as a newbie looking to join a club and be taught how to fly properly i would look at a more mainstream radio, personally i would go for hitec aurora, best bang for buck out there... Ps i am a JR man

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Posted by Lee Smalley on 21/03/2014 10:07:29:
The frsky taranis and other open source software tx are for me a pain in the preverbial unless you are prepared to spend large amounts of time learning how to program it, i am sick of newbies turning up to the patch with these things because some programmer on a forum told them to and then they expect me the instructor to spend god knows how long trying to figure out how to reverse and add dual rates to a channel, i go to fly not spend ages trying to sort some newbies tx out just so he can have one flight, and then who is he gonna buddy box with?? If your an experienced flyer and you enjoy getting involved in programming then that's fine, but as a newbie looking to join a club and be taught how to fly properly i would look at a more mainstream radio, personally i would go for hitec aurora, best bang for buck out there... Ps i am a JR man

I have some sympathy to your post Lee

I posted a similar comment recently, however as more and more turn up at clubs with them what do we do ?

cant turn away members our club needs them. my solution is to point them to one of the younger instructors and walk away briskly

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I think the bicycle analogy is actually quite a good one - imagine someone who was learning to ride a bicycle asked you this question: Can you give me a rule, a number, for how far over I have to lean the bicycle in a corner?

Well you could do the analysis - like you I'm an engineer! - we could work out the forces, gravity and centripedal, taking into account the speed and any road camber, we could model the friction of the tyre road contact, we could even build in dynamic effects like frame flexing etc. But would such an explanation really tell them anything useful? I suspect not. The reality is that the real answer to the question is at the same time both very simple and yet frustratingly vague! "You lean the bike as far as you need to, within the limits of the tyres etc., to go around the corner at the radius you want." How do you know much that is it? Easy - experience allied to honed judgement.

Your question about what qualities help a pilot to fly in the wind is a bit more tractable. I think the key one is that controlling the model must have reached a state with you that it is 100% instinctive. It must not be the case that you are having to think and analyse - "oh the left wing has gone down I need to add right aileron - and maybe a bit of left rudder to prevent a turn". No - that's no good. The correction must be made without conscious thought - instantly, instinctively, whatever the orientation of the model. That's what's needed to fly in gusty conditions.

Now most pilots with some experience can do this to some degree. But more and more experience makes the flying increasingly second nature - no need for analysis or thought - just pure reflex. And this makes flying in gusty conditions possible. But,....even an experienced pilot has limits to this process. Generally just flying around is Ok - you have time to react - no model ever crashed 100 feet in the air! Its when you come to land that the real problems start - now, as Jez points out, the error margin gets very small indeed. One slow "pick-up" or correction here and its curtains for the model! I'd speculate that 99% of damage done to models in wind is not done in the flying - its in the landing, where even reflex reactions might not be quite fast enough or 100% correct - and the situation is very unforgiving.

What we are calling "experience" and "judgement" about flying in the wind comes down to that question "Am I reasonably confident that given this degree of unpredictability in the wind speed I can react to perturbances of the flight path accurately and fast enough near the ground - and the answer to that will be different for every pilot and only the pilot can answer it.

BEB

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Lee Smalley on 21/03/2014 10:07:29:
The frsky taranis and other open source software tx are for me a pain in the preverbial unless you are prepared to spend large amounts of time learning how to program it, i am sick of newbies turning up to the patch with these things because some programmer on a forum told them to and then they expect me the instructor to spend god knows how long trying to figure out how to reverse and add dual rates to a channel, i go to fly not spend ages trying to sort some newbies tx out just so he can have one flight, and then who is he gonna buddy box with?? If your an experienced flyer and you enjoy getting involved in programming then that's fine, but as a newbie looking to join a club and be taught how to fly properly i would look at a more mainstream radio, personally i would go for hitec aurora, best bang for buck out there... Ps i am a JR man

Lee - try removing the word "Taranis" and substitute "2.4" or even "proportional control"! remind you of anything?

As to the question "who are they going to buddy with?" - Well Taranis is the only transmitter I am aware of that can buddy with Futaba, Spektrum, JR or even Hi-tech.

You can't hold back progress mate! Imagine if everyone had taken the same position when Spektrum Tx's started to appear on 2.4GHz?

I've been playing with the Taranis for 2 months - it took me an hour or two to put my first model in - not bad for a new Tx - it would probably take me the same to put my first model into say a JR which I'm not very familiar with. Since then I've added many more - and each time it gets easier. After an entire R/C career on Futaba I've just started putting my FASST RX's on eBay - I'm that impressed.

My experience is that Taranis is not difficult to program - I think that's a bit of an urban myth to be honest. It is different to program that's true. But I believe that's something we're just going to have to learn to live with. OpenTX is here to stay. And just to really put the cat among the pidgeons I'll make a prediction for you - in 5 years time you'll struggle to buy a Tx that isn't running OpenTx or a clone of it. Basically it has the potential to be "windows for transmitters". And before the Mac and Linux users start getting excited - say what you will about Windows, yes it does have its faults, but it has brought interoperable computing to the mass market.

So I think we need to get used to OpenTx - because it isn't going away anytime soon.

BEB

[Chris Anthony]

Again, thanks all for the TX advice. I think I'll have to have a good look into it some time over the weekend as it appears I have a lot of research to do. I'll be posting back comments/follow-up questions once I've done this.

Simon, I'm talking about gusts, and their unpredictability, not turbulence. My field is open with no large features to disturb air flow in the way you describe. And I appreciate the effects of a constant, predictable wind are different to gusts/turbulence, I had tried to make this differentiation clear in my posts. But I like your comment on wind speed reducing when nearer to the ground, I'll take this thought to my next flight and see if I spot the effects, thanks.

Keith, I have already noticed that a "windy day" is usually calmer in the morning as you say (and have taken full advantage of it!). I like what you said about noting the winds effects on key features at your field as a way of remembering what conditions are likely to cause you trouble. These are the kinds of comments I was after. I believe that all experienced pilots do this subconsciously, and maybe use other sources of reference such as recognising the sound of the wind. Perhaps because these guys have it all nailed subconsciously is the reason that my question is challenging, it is hard to recall and define.

BEB, what I was trying to depict in my posts, as you describe, is a pilot who already has 100% instinctive reactions when it comes to responding to changes in his aircraft's orientation/speed due to disturbances. But even HE will still have a limit, a certain amount of unpredictable gustiness that he can fly in before even he feels uncomfortable. You yourself, have a limit of unpredictable gustiness you can tolerate, and I'm sure you're close to that 100% intuition with your aircraft So I want to know what observations he/you will make, either in the aircraft's behaviour, or in the actual weather conditions to recognise that you are near this limit.

I'm not trying to establish HOW he/you got so natural with the plane to begin with. Which is what the original bike analogy "how do I ride a bike" is equivalent to. I'm not asking "how do I become 100% intuitive with the aircraft", just as the bicycle question is asking "how do I become 100% intuitive with a bicycle". Can you see a difference?

A learner with 20 days of experience and an expert with 20 years of experience will have different levels of reactions with the aircraft controls/intuition, but both are equally able to establish their own comfort levels. It is how this done, how this comfort zone is defined that I am trying to establish.

For example, I flew just this morning, and recognised that it was a much calmer day. Of course I knew this before even getting up in the air, because of the sound of the wind, how much my body was getting pushed by it, and seeing some trees in the distance move barely at all.

But I also recognised that the gusts were small enough to be well within my comfort zone, whilst my plane was on approach to land. I heard/felt the wind pick up, and could see the plane become disturbed by this. It descended vertically, and the amount it had fallen by the time I had corrected was equivalent to the height of 1 multiple of the fuselage (around 3 inches). I saw that happen and thought "These conditions are fine, I'm comfortable with that level of disturbance", because I figured that even if this had happened at 3 inches altitude (the worst case scenario), there would have been no damage. This is something I recognised as it happened, and I thought to myself "if that had happened just above the ground, the plane would have been fine".

Last weekend on the other hand was the gustiest that I have been out. A similar situation occurred on approach, but this time due to the larger magnitude of the gust, the aircraft fell around 5 multiples of the height of the fuselage before my similar reaction could correct. This time, I thought "These conditions are not fine, I'm not comfortable with that level of disturbance", because if this had happened at 15 inches altitude (the worst case scenario), the aircraft would likely have been damaged. Again, this is something I recognised as it happened, I thought to myself "if that had happened just above the ground, the plane would have been damaged". Note that my reaction time and type of response is equal in both circumstances, so I am trying to establish a weather condition limit, not a human reaction limit.

I recognise and agree with what you have said about there being less "risk" when this kind of discomforting disturbance happens 100 feet in the air. But when the aircraft exhibits this kind of drop 100 feet in the air, whilst it may not crash, it will still make the pilot think "blimey, if that happened to me on approach, I'd have been in trouble". These are thoughts that I presume would reduce a pilot's confidence level in the conditions, and would lead him to define those particular conditions as "out of his comfort zone", no?

I have described some cues that I have learnt to spot, that determine my comfort zone boundary. Perhaps as a beginner I am more able to consciously recognise these, because flying is not yet intuitive to me, but these cues are still there, and every pilot, now matter how good, must do something similar. Everyone has their limits, as you have said, so I'm asking, how they are recognised.

Edited By Pete B - Moderator on 21/03/2014 14:50:33