Pete B Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I'm not usually in favour of posting crash videos as they can give a very distorted view of the safety-consciousness of the overwhelming majority of modellers. However, this should concentrate the minds of anyone displaying models of any size: The BMFA guidance states a minimum of 30m separation of the crowd and for models above 7Kg, 50m. It looks to me as if this display was well short on both counts. One also has to question at what time the decision to abandon a take-off is prudent? Pete ps Further video from the other direction here: Edited By Pete B - Moderator on 11/07/2014 13:07:44 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martian Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 good grief Pete that was a close call Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Walters Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Hmmmmmmmm! That was a close one! Very lucky not to have injured anyone too! Phew. From the way the B29 responded IMO the T/O should have been aborted - pilot took a chance I think and it didn't come off. As they say where there's a doubt there's no doubt! Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Like a lot of such incidents I think there isn't just one error here - there is a chain of them and each made its own contribution to the result. I read this as: 1. The crowd line is far too close. Error number 1. 2. The model started a (probably torque induced) swing to the left early in the run. Once the left swing was established the take off should have been aborted. It wasn't. Error number 2. 3. The closeness of the crowd on the left, combined with the left swing and that lack of an abort, led to the pilot panicking and pulling the model off far too early. Error number 3. 4 The premature lift-off left the model slow and severely "nose up" that led the left wing stalling - which as the inner wing in a left yaw it was always going to. Not really an error - just the inevitable consequence of the 1-3! If any one of those elements had been absent he would probably have got away with it. But the fact is they weren't absent and he didn't. Incredibly lucky that no one was injured. There are a lot of lessons we can all learn from this sort of thing - the most significant two in my opinion probably being a) that the BMFA's 50m rule is by no means over cautious! b) Never be too proud to abort a take-off that is not going to plan. BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingKade Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Oh my word, that is awful... i never want to be at a show and that happens.... I hope the pilot is given a good talking to..... I agree with BEB... on error 2 happening, abort.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Clarkson Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I'm actually a little shocked by that vid..........posted for all the right reasons Pete, members of our hobby need to see things like this if not for education alone. I don't normally like to dwell on the "What could of happened" type scenarios but that was a bit close for comfort!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingKade Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 when I'm at a show, model or full-size, I and probably everyone else is completely trusting off the pilots skill and ability to do the right thing.. but this is just plain scary.....no pun intended Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Fenton Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 That is a frightening and shocking video, IMO lessons must be learned and steps taken to make sure that doesn't happen again. I am sure this the Mac Hodges B-29, and it is a regular flyer at shows in the USA? And if it is the one then my understanding was the pilot is very experienced. Could it have been some sort of electrical failure, the motors do not cut at all which implies the failsafes wouldn't function? Scrub all that I can see full right aileron and full right rudder. The smoke system doesn't seem to be working well from the port engine could that engine be sick? Just a thought Cheers Danny Edited By Danny Fenton on 11/07/2014 16:50:40 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete B Posted July 11, 2014 Author Share Posted July 11, 2014 Looking at the video and assuming the span of the model at 20ft, I'd say the runway centreline is not more than 60ft or so from the spectator line - let's be generous and say 80ft. The irresponsibility extends way beyond the pilot's handling of the situation, I'd say.... Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Fenton Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 The comments on RCGroups are interesting... I quote: On July 10th at the Warbirds Over Delaware event, Mac Hodges was preparing to take off in his famous B-29 to put on a show for the crowd as he had done hundreds of times. Watch the video below, as the plane powers down the runway it veers off towards the crowd caused by some sort of mechanical failure. The B-29 had too much speed to stop and would not turn away from the crowd so Mac decides to yank it into the air to avoid running right into the crowd of spectators. The plane climbs out, appears to stall and nose dives into the tents behind the flight line. Luckily most of the people were at the flight line waiting to see the show so the huge B-29 only hit a tent and no one was harmed in the accident. Macs quick thinking surely saved quite a few people from injury. It's also a great reminder to always control the plane. We've seen it before where something unexpected happens and the pilot just freezes not knowing what to do. Good thing Mac knew what to do by getting the plane up and over the crowd. It's better to sacrifice an airplane and avoid injuring others. It's sad to see the B-29 in so many pieces though. It's been a staple at many flying events, but we're hoping we get a see a 5th generation B-29 from Mr. Hodges soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reg shaw Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 It looks a simple case of several pilot errors to me, even the backtrack before take off requires full right rudder to get it to go nearly straight, the fact that you don't see it turn round makes me think some bloke had to run out to turn it round. Pilot error No1 for still taking off, then you can clearly see the port outer aint playing ball, yet he still goes for it for Pilot error No 2, that wing with that much aileron deflection, the port outer wing panel never actually got chance to fly, should've aborted, he didn't and commits Pilot error No3, then he hauls it off anyway, full up elevator all the way for Pilot error No4. You can see the elevator is 'ON' all the way to the ground again! Then the bloke doesn't even throttle back, Pilot error No5. Pilot error No6 will probably be the excuse they come up with as to why it wasn't pilot error. Ian. Edited By reg shaw on 11/07/2014 17:25:51 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingKade Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 on arrival to the show, could the pilot just not say "the spectator line is to close to the runway, i can't fly here!" but he didn't. He made a judgment call to except the conditions and layout and committed to fly. he didn't have to. The organisers could have had a spectator line 5 metres from the runway, if no one flys theres no problem, its up to the pilot to except the responsibility. surely it says this in some handbook somewhere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Fenton Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I am with you and the other posters Ian, he should have killed the engines the instant one misfired, which happened quite early on in the roll. I think the quote above is being used to try and put some positive spin on the acident Cheers Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete B Posted July 11, 2014 Author Share Posted July 11, 2014 A staggering level of self-denial in that post, Danny. No matter how much they try to whitewash this, it was wrong on so many levels. I see on the other RCG thread that an AMA VP has apparently been circulating members, asking them to post good/reasonable comments on the FAA site..... I'd say that when you realise you're in a hole, stop digging! Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Posted for the right reasons, well done. I usually watch these 'rc disaster' clips and wince when the model goes in. But this one? a real sharp intake of breath. And if that happened here? The BMFA, LMA etc would be all over it and rightly so. I won't add to what has been said - it's all valid - but the crowd was too close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cymaz Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Watching that video, if you look at the port outer engine it doesn't seem to be running as fast as the others. Anyone else see this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 If its true that an AMA's VP is encouraging people to make positive posts on the FAA website, then I think he has completely "lost it"! This was very bad incident, in which only by the grace of God no one was injured, that was I believe completely avoidable by the simple application of standard safe operating procedures and reasonable airmanship. What does he do? Go into 100% denial and attempt some sort of crass whitewash! Now suppose you are the FAA - would sort of impression about the model community's responsible behaviour and commitment to safe practice does that give you? Not a very reassuring one right? I mean the guy is a VP of the AMA for heavens sake! With friends like that we don't need enemies! BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reg shaw Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I think the short crowdline distance thing in this case is a good thing. If the exact thing had happened at a UK show it might have been into the crowd and not behind it. I'm not buying the reason that something mechanically went wrong. If something did, then it was before the no going back point. There wasn't a radio problem as the inputs that are visible are the right ones, just way too much and heavy handed. That model crashed because the massive down going aileron movement on the port wing stalled that portion of the span which causes the roll. The 'panic pull' elevator compounds the issue. The port outer not giving its all wouldn't help, but it certainly shouldn't cause a crash. The model is normally way overpowered and would probably safely take off on 2, never mind 3. I know it sounds a bit harsh, but it smacks of dumass flying, no matter how much 'experience' you have. Ian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingKade Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Posted by Pete B - Moderator on 11/07/2014 17:53:05: A staggering level of self-denial in that post, Danny. No matter how much they try to whitewash this, it was wrong on so many levels. I see on the other RCG thread that an AMA VP has apparently been circulating members, asking them to post good/reasonable comments on the FAA site..... I'd say that when you realise you're in a hole, stop digging! Pete There will no doubt be very serious repercussions..... although its in america, so..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Green Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Posted by cymaz on 11/07/2014 19:20:10: Watching that video, if you look at the port outer engine it doesn't seem to be running as fast as the others. Anyone else see this? This video shows that he has independent throttles - and he uses that as part of the show (skip to 2:24) Maybe a tx mix problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area 51 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Quite amazing! The #1 engine, port outer, does look as though it is under performing as the take off run approaches the camera man (prop looks slow(er)). This maybe video frames per second; however, it would support a swing to port as power is applied and the #3 & 4 engines (starboard) produce maximum RPM and swing the a/c! This continued into flight as the a/c rotated to port once airborne possibly as a result of more power coming from the starboard engines... I am sure there a many factors here, thankfully no one was hurt. Electing to take the the a/c into the air was the wrong decision; upon noting the swing as power was applied the take off roll should have been aborted and situation checked. An awareness of the crowd (their safety)/field restrictions should have driven this decision alone. These guys should really expect a call from the FAA, especially now with this all over the WWW. Not the place for an enquiry. AMA could do with taking it down until all investigations are completed, if only to prevent the media from having a field day once it is picked up and getting it all out of proportion.. The second video above reminds me of my view point at the Cosford LMA show some years back when the large hunter performed a poor take off or was under powered.. I had an extremely good view of the screws and fixings of the nose oleo/wheel.. Extremely close. Edited By Area 51 on 11/07/2014 20:30:22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin b Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I have looked at the video quite carefully and it appears to me that there were problems with both port engines from the moment that the throttle was opened. It has been pointed out that this is a veteran of model airshows. Was it a case of complacency ? From my point of view as someone with very limited (and I mean that) experience, It would seem that the aircraft didn't behave as normal and the pilot didn't know what to do apart from pull all the levers and hope for the best ! Sorry Kingkade, but due to this wonderful world wide web, it doesn't matter where it happens. The knock on effect has repercussions for all of us. Maybe it's time that national bodies got together to put some sort of minimum international safety rules together. Particularly regarding proximity of spectators and flying. Edited By kevin b on 11/07/2014 20:31:16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area 51 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Posted by Phil Green on 11/07/2014 20:22:05: Posted by cymaz on 11/07/2014 19:20:10: Watching that video, if you look at the port outer engine it doesn't seem to be running as fast as the others. Anyone else see this? SPOTTED ~ CHECK! You can be my wingman, any time.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Privett Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Posted by cymaz on 11/07/2014 19:20:10: Watching that video, if you look at the port outer engine it doesn't seem to be running as fast as the others. Anyone else see this? Yes, that was my first impression on watching the video. Now I know the "wagon-wheel" effect can make things like this very deceptive on video. However looking at individual frames appears to confirm that the port outer is running much slower than the other engines. On the other engines the props are blurred and appear just as a disc. On the port outer however, the blur is much less - that prop is rotating at a much slower speed. There also appeared to be a lot of exhaust smoke from the starboard engine(s), but not from the port ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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