dx6 brownouts

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

I gave up on Orange receivers at the very first sign of anyone having any trouble, even though I hadn't.

If I use Spektrum, then I now insist on DSMX.

With a 4Ch full range proper Spektrum Rx only costing £17.99, I really can't see why folk would scrimp and put not only their investment, but people and property at risk.

These are Spektrum and DSMX, they have two separate aerials and the aerials can be located a distance apart, and can be set up at 90deg to each other. Thus giving a signal the very best chance of getting through.

[Pete B]

Posted by kc on 14/08/2014 13:54:30:

Pete, the new DX6 online manual shows two areas where the aerial emits RF so it has two aerials! ( one in the handle )

It does indeed, kc - but the manual is wrong, as was a promotional video produced by Spektrum. See the posts #350 and #351 in this RCG thread:

and here, in the same thread:

I'm not asking you to take my word for it but if you want to argue the point with Andy Kunz, carry on - he only develops the system!

Now, I think it's conceivable that a user may just have been following the habits of a lifetime and inadvertently pointing the axis of the aerial in the general direction of the model, which would seriously diminish the signal quality reaching the Rx. That is why I and most other 6i and 8, etc, users, turn the hinged aerial to run parallel with the top of the Tx - to ensure maximum radiated power at the model.

TBH, I think they would have been better putting the single aerial in the handle and not bothering with the sticky-out bit....

Pete

[ERIC DODSWORTH]

there we go then its my fault for missunderstanding that an aerial in the transmitter is for receiving and pointing my aerial at the model when flying the aerial is positioned in a position that spektrum say you should never have it positioned on any other radio does that make it our fault or horizons for putting the aerial in the wrong place as for cheap 4 channel rx's one function short for duel ailerons

[kc]

Well Pete if the manual is wrong then it certainly is not Eric's fault! But we dont think its anything to do with the aerial, it's something that has changed in the DX6 compared to the DX6i which makes previously OK Rx have no range.

BEB, as I understand it Eric did not knowingly fly with non Spektrum Rx in his own models. How do you know your trainees have genuine Spektrum Rx? Do you check for yourself? How do you check?

Chris,   We are talking about Tx aerials here.  Eric thought he had bought proper Spektrum Rx for his own model! How do you know these inexpensive 4 channel Rx are genuine Spektrum?

My point of view is that if the latest DX6 is not compatible with Rx that were / are OK with the old DX6i and other Spektrum Tx then Spektrum should clearly state this now. To avoid an accident BMFA should be warning clubs if orange Rx and undetectable fake SpektrumRx are not safe with new DX6. I say IF because it's not proven just on these incidents ( 3 with Eric 1 with my clubmate) We need an authoritive guide - either they are safe or all clubs must ban them instantly. The longer we wait for definite info that something has changed in DX6 ( or not) the bigger risk to Spektrums reputation.

 

 

Edited By kc on 14/08/2014 19:21:26

[Colin Carpenter]

Hi all. No experience with new DX6 yet but the problem rate with all Spektrum Tx and Rx is noticeable in my club. Yes, nearly everyone flies Spektrum rather than Futaba or Hitec ,but all Rx, including Orange, give unexplained failures in aircraft that may have over 100 problem free flights ! Fitting UBEC`s have helped restore some peoples faith including mine. I`ve got over 500 flights on my DX9 with only 1 glitch, but it was surely a glitch not an installation problem as the aircraft continues to fly normally again less an Orange 610 rx. The verdict is still out in my view.

Colin

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by kc on 14/08/2014 19:19:31:

BEB, as I understand it Eric did not knowingly fly with non Spektrum Rx in his own models. How do you know your trainees have genuine Spektrum Rx? Do you check for yourself? How do you check?

Edited By kc on 14/08/2014 19:21:26

I know because I check! I always insist on checking the model of any new pupil. I check the model for physical integrity, I check the power system installation, I check the radio installation and finally I check that all the controls move freely and in the correct orientation. Standard procedure for any instructor surely? Now I might be taken in by a counterfeit Rx - but I can the difference between Speeky and Orange/Lemon or anything similar.

BEB

[Dave Hopkin]

Posted by kc on 14/08/2014 19:19:31:

My point of view is that if the latest DX6 is not compatible with Rx that were / are OK with the old DX6i and other Spektrum Tx then Spektrum should clearly state this now.

Edited By kc on 14/08/2014 19:21:26

Spektrum are under NO obligation to test their equipment for compatibility with competitors in any way shape or form, if a company markets a product as being "Spektrum compatible" it is up to them to verify it and issue any warnings required.....

Has anyone had issues when using a Spektrum TX and a Spektrum RX? No? then logic dictates that the issue lies with the claim that Orange Rx;'s are a "fully compatible product"

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Dave Hopkin on 14/08/2014 23:00:51:

Posted by kc on 14/08/2014 19:19:31:

My point of view is that if the latest DX6 is not compatible with Rx that were / are OK with the old DX6i and other Spektrum Tx then Spektrum should clearly state this now.

Edited By kc on 14/08/2014 19:21:26

Spektrum are under NO obligation to test their equipment for compatibility with competitors in any way shape or form, if a company markets a product as being "Spektrum compatible" it is up to them to verify it and issue any warnings required.....

Has anyone had issues when using a Spektrum TX and a Spektrum RX? No? then logic dictates that the issue lies with the claim that Orange Rx;'s are a "fully compatible product"

I totally agree Dave.

BEB

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

Posted by ERIC DODSWORTH on 14/08/2014 17:50:32:

there we go then its my fault for missunderstanding that an aerial in the transmitter is for receiving and pointing my aerial at the model when flying the aerial is positioned in a position that spektrum say you should never have it positioned on any other radio does that make it our fault or horizons for putting the aerial in the wrong place as for cheap 4 channel rx's one function short for duel ailerons

I really don't think dual ailerons are a necessity on a trainer, and KC I have to trust that I'm getting a bona fide Spektrum receiver if I buy it from a bona fide Spektrum dealer. If things fail then, I have a legitimate complaint.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Like BEB, I am not really a Spektrum user except for the odd indoor model and I have also buddied with my DX6i so don't have any "allegiance" to them but I do think it totally unreasonable to criticise Spektrum for the actions of others. A quick look on the net for a DX6 manual confirms, as I suspected, that they advise users to use genuine equipment:

This is a sophisticated hobby product. It must be operated with caution and common sense and requires some basic mechanical ability.

Failure to operate this Product in a safe and responsible manner could result in injury or damage to the product or other property. This

product is not intended for use by children without direct adult supervision. Do not attempt disassembly, use with incompatible components

or augment product in any way without the approval of Horizon Hobby, LLC. This manual contains instructions for safety, operation

and maintenance. It is essential to read and follow all the instructions and warnings in the manual, prior to assembly, setup or use, in

order to operate correctly and avoid damage or serious injury.

WARNING AGAINST COUNTERFEIT PRODUCTS

Always purchase from a Horizon Hobby, LLC authorized dealer to ensure authentic high-quality Spektrum product. Horizon Hobby,

LLC disclaims all support and warranty with regards, but not limited to, compatibility and performance of counterfeit products or products

claiming compatibility with DSM or Spektrum.

[Phil Green]

Posted by Dave Hopkin on 14/08/2014 23:00:51:

Has anyone had issues when using a Spektrum TX and a Spektrum RX?

I think you'll find they have Dave!

But back on topic - though Orange & Lemon receivers are perfectly legal, Spektrum dont like them, and there is probably scope within both DSM2 and DSMX protocols for slight variations which Spektrum receivers would tolerate but which could catch out the opposition. I suspect as do many others that this is what they might have done, but they wont disclose this as they dont publish either protocol.

[ERIC DODSWORTH]

go back you will see not all my crashes were orange all my crashes were dsm2 the radio was bought to buddy with learners that doesn't mean i fly trainer models

[TigerOC]

Quoted earlier from Manual supplied;

WARNING AGAINST COUNTERFEIT PRODUCTS

Always purchase from a Horizon Hobby, LLC authorized dealer to ensure authentic high-quality Spektrum product. Horizon Hobby,

LLC disclaims all support and warranty with regards, but not limited to, compatibility and performance of counterfeit products or products claiming compatibility with DSM or Spektrum.

Edited By TigerOC on 15/08/2014 09:31:32

[ERIC DODSWORTH]

Forums are ace research on the web teach you how to spot fakes also has the manufacturer claiming duel diversity pre ordered with this in mind when it arrived that safety feature was missing is it just coincidence that models are being lost the internet post were from horizon hobbies themselves so they should know their product

[kc]

THIS IS A SAFETY ISSUE! If Spektrum know their latest DX6 is not compatible with Rx that are compatible with DX6i then they should state so. Especially if they have deliberately made the latest TX so it wont work properly with fake or 'pattern' Rx.

Either Eric has bought a duff DX6 or the DX6 is not safe with orange Rx. If it's not safe then BMFA must publicise this and clubs must ban orange Rx and DX6 combinations immediately.

[Peter Beeney]

I’m sure it’s quite easy to create these conditions of transmitters working or not working to various receivers, but in some cases might that not be tantamount to nearly shooting yourself in the foot? Suppose I had a tx that had worked fine to a receiver for a long time but when I bought a shiny new tx it immediately became a black bag job. I think I’d be fully justified in thinking it was the fault of the new tx, (which indirectly perhaps it is), so I return it to the manufacturer; does he then say ‘no fault found’, in which case what would I be expected to think, or does he say ‘sorry fruitgum, this tx no longer is compatible with that rx anymore’, and in this case I think I at least would consider this to be something of a backward step. Or even two,maybe. If nothing is ever made clear on these points, and indeed if they even exist, then a series of problems (crashes) must surely have an adverse effect on the manufacturers reputation. And this without even mentioning any legal implications and aspects of any sort related to this situation.

Another thing I have some thoughts on occasionally, the aerial orientation syndrome. I always seem to be reading how necessary it is to get this right, but we’ve never been able to create any physical conditions where we able to get it wrong! Not even by a teeny weeny bit! Therefore so far I’m not convinced about this at all.

Reading these threads right through a few times, I sometimes think that there is an underlying sort of misunderstanding somewhere along the line, and perhaps with a little bit more thought and preparation there might be a few less crashes. But maybe that’s just me, like BEB I certainly want to ensure everything is fit for purpose before committing to the unknown.

PB

[FlyinBrian]

Posted by kc on 15/08/2014 11:09:22:

THIS IS A SAFETY ISSUE! If Spektrum know their latest DX6 is not compatible with Rx that are compatible with DX6i then they should state so. Especially if they have deliberately made the latest TX so it wont work properly with fake or 'pattern' Rx.

Either Eric has bought a duff DX6 or the DX6 is not safe with orange Rx. If it's not safe then BMFA must publicise this and clubs must ban orange Rx and DX6 combinations immediately.

I dont think Spektrum have intimated that any Spektrum Tx is compatible with any receiver other than genuine Spektrum products, you use "compatible" products at your own risk.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Far from it being Spektrum's "responsibility" to inform users of a problem with "compatible" equipment, they - and the BMFA even back in the 35 MHz PPM days - have always advised using manufacturer's own receivers, so isn't it the responsibility of the makers of the no longer compatible equipment to warn their users of the equipment's shortcomings?

If - and this is a big if - a manufacturer has deliberately made new equipment incompatible (but still somehow backwardly compatible with their own older receivers) this would be a different matter and morally they should make this clear, but does anyone have any basis to accuse anyone of doing this? Surely no responsible manufacturer would risk their reputation by users publicising a series of unexplained model crashes shortly after the introduction of a new model or software?

[ERIC DODSWORTH]

i preordered my radio all the information available stated duel diversity little brother of the 9 which is duel diversity if i now find that is not the case do i have a the right to refuse the goods as not as described or is the radio that comes to the uk of an inferior quality to the us model

[kc]

It is Spektrums reputation on the line if equip does not work as expected.

HobbyKing UK are today advertising an under 6 pound 6 channel Orange Rx as "Compatible with all Spektrum/JR DSM2/DSMX 2.4GHz Air transmitters and now featuring CPPM!" So someone needs to test this out with a latest DX6 and see if it's true. In my opinion in the light of Eric's crashes alone the BMFA that should test it urgently and publish the result immediately. But will they? Thats what they should be spending our BMFA subs on!

 

Of course what is being sold today may differ from the orange Rx Eric found incompatible with a DX6 and also the one my clubmate found worked with a DX6i but not with a new DX6. But we need the facts - it's no good waiting until an accident occurs. Either all Orange Rx work OK with the new DX6, or none do, or some do some dont.

Edited By kc on 15/08/2014 12:41:55

[Trevor Crook]

One of the clubs I fly with brought in a club rule a few years ago that 2.4G sets must use Tx's (or modules) and Rx's from the same manufacturer, the only exception being JR and Spektrum on DSM2. This was brought about by several issues with earlier "compatible" receivers. Over-cautious? Possibly, but in the scheme of things the extra cost of buying a manufacturer's own Rx is not that great.

If I understand correctly, some of those posting are suggesting that Spektrum (and Futaba and others for that matter) should seek out all makes of "compatible" receivers and make sure they all work with all of their transmitters. This does not sound reasonable.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Although being primarily aimed at 35 MHz where the practice was common, the following from the BMFA handbook is equally (if not more) valid for 2.4 GHz equipment:

A matched Tx and Rx will be warranted by their manufacturer both as individual items and to work together as a pair. If you ‘mix and match’, the individual warranties still apply but you have no guarantee that the pair will work together. In this case you take upon yourself the legal responsibility of making sure that your equipment operates correctly.

If someone can provide proof that there is a problem then by all means feel free to forward the information and test details to the BMFA for their consideration and possible promulgation. Be aware that making unproved claims publically could result in legal action by the interested parties so mere suspicion is unlikely to get a stronger response than generally making people aware of the above advice...

In virtually, if not in all cases, radio manufacturers state very clearly that only their own receivers should be used.

Edited By Martin Harris on 15/08/2014 13:25:17

[Levanter]

For me the whole issue is supremely straight forward. If fact are needed or is if there ANY issues that need explaining then it is for the manufacturers of the "compatible" equipment to do the testing and make any urgent announcements that are necessary. I really don't see it as being the remit of the BMFA either and furthermore I think they should avoid being directly involved in such commercial matters as being a thin end of a very big wedge.

If companies choose to make cheaper, compatible equipment on the back of another company's established brand it is absolutely at their risk. And by the way there is nothing wrong with buying into a leading Brand so Spektrum should not be made the scapegoat and the fake producers will not care.

We know what equipment we put into our models unless we have been duped. That is also where the responsibility lies. It is amazingly infrequent how it is someone else's fault.

[Peter Beeney]

Yes indeed, if I were a manufacturer I wouldn’t contemplate for one millisecond on doing something like including a non-compatibility mechanism, the potential losses must far outweigh any gains there may be available; and with regard to actually is responsible for what, I think it’s as m’learned friend the retired model flying solicitor always says, ‘I won’t comment, but a court will finally decide for sure who is right and wrong in any dispute.‘

Returning briefly to the randomly pointing aerials, when somebody now tells me they’ve crashed due to their aerials being misaligned, now I’m like, yeah, ok, right… Maybe, just maybe, it’s rather more of a case of their thumbs being misaligned…

When there is a problem, as we had with Spektrum, long ago now, we just kicked it around until we discovered what it was. As related before, it was the transmitter switch. But in the beginning this was the last thing we suspected, these things are certainly not always easy to crack.

PB

[Pete B]

If you can demonstrate consistent signal loss or problems with the DX6 using a genuine Spektrum Rx, DSMX or DSM2, I would heartily recommend that you post the details over on the dedicated RCG DX6 thread.

Andy Kunz will provide an informed response - and Freechip is well-versed in Spekky gear too. You will get more of a result than just complaining about it here or even contacting Spektrum directly. I'm pretty sure Andy won't want to hear about non-Spekky Rx problems, so don't expect a solution to that issue.

You'll need to make it a far more readable description of the setup and circumstances than any that have been provided so far, though - you have to give the guy a resonable chance to understand the problem...

You can also bend his ear about the aerial position and the duff manual and video information at the same time, too....I'm sure he'll feed it back

Pete