Multi Rotor A and B Test Launched

[Peter Jenkins]

The long awaited Multi-rotor A and B tests have now been launched by the BMFA. Follow this <<LINK>>

[Andy Meade]

I have no idea how to perform a loop with an APM equipped quad! Aeros with automated egg whisks (to me) never look natural - I use mine for going fast (well...fast for me!) and exploring areas.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

There is a point in this that confuses me - can anyone shed any light here?

The requirements state that the craft can use gyros - but not GPS stabilisation - fair enough. Again it says that no waypoint style autopiloting must be used - again fair enough.

So I would interpret that as the test must be flown with the multi-rotor in ATTI-mode. Right? And that makes sense.

But,...it also says that the gyro's must not provide self-leveling? But ATTI-mode does self level? I wouldn't know with my NAZA M V2 how to obtain gyro stabilisation without being in ATTI-mode that is self-leveling. And as far as I know other flight-controllers are similar. So how are we supposed to comply with this?

Have I missed something - or have they?

BEB

[Andy Meade]

I thought the same - auto levelling functionality needs to be turned off, which means my APM needs to be in Acro or Sport mode apparently. I've only ever used stabilize / alt hold / RTH! Well, it should make me progress through different modes and gain knowledge of the FC I suppose.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

But lots of commonly used FC's don't have a "sport mode"? The only alternative would be total "manual mode" no stabilisation at all?

BEB

[Andy Meade]

I guess that's right BEB, in which case I guess these little blighters become a right handful! It's also called "rate" mode, depending on your FC.

[Frank Skilbeck]

All multirotors need gyros to control the motors but I think the point BMFA are making is that the Multirotor shouldn't have any form of auto-leveling enabled, i.e. i.e. it shouldn't the type that doesn't come back to level automatically when you centre the sticks, the pilot should be the one bringing the multirotor back to level not some form of auto-leveling.

I suppose what they are trying to test is the pilots competence but if all the pilot does is move thew sticks until the Multirotor moves to position and then centres the sticks he's not demonstrating he is in control on the Multirotor. The idea being that if you've passed your A test then you can fly any type of Multirotor, whereas if you passed the test with the autoleveling type then you may not be able to fly one without.

A bit like passing your car test in a manual car allows you to drive an automatic but not vice versa.

[Essjay]

On the very first page of the A certificate instructions it states:

"Electric Powered Models must be treated as LIVE as soon as the main flight battery is connected, irrespective of radio state and great care must be demonstrated by the candidate."

What about those craft with a factory fitted on/off switch, such as the Blade 350QX?

Surely this isn't LIVE until switched on?

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

The thing is Frank - I'm not sure that in so-called "manual mode" flight controllers such as the NAZA M V2 do have the gyro's active. I'd welcome some advice on that particular point.

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 14/08/2014 16:10:39

[DH 82A]

Good old BMFA- if it moves, bring on a test for it.

[Frank Skilbeck]

Posted by DH 82A on 14/08/2014 16:51:21:

Good old BMFA- if it moves, bring on a test for it.

I think it was brought in because some of the members asked for it. Some clubs don't allow you to fly solo unless you have an A certificate and with new members turning up with Multirotors they weren't sure how to assess them.

You don't need an A certificate to fly anything and even as a BMFA member it is not a requirement, but it maybe a club requirement, It is an achievement scheme not a mandatory requirement.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I checked with a couple of members of the scheme committee earlier today and Frank seems to have encapsulated it perfectly if I understood correctly. While some stabilisation to allow the model to be controllable is allowed, the candidate should be able to demonstrate that there is no form of self recovery i.e. the multicopter should eventually fall off a hover if no input is made.

There would be little point in demonstrating that a machine will fly itself so it would be the candidate's responsibility to provide a model capable of demonstrating their ability to control it.

And having read Frank's latest post, it is very relevant that this is an achievement scheme and not any form of licence.

Edited By Martin Harris on 15/08/2014 00:08:20

[Martin Turner 3]

I am a multirotor pilot and I have a Fixed wing A and B.

Having read these tests I believe they are completely inappropriate for multirotors.
It suggests to me that who-ever has set these tests does not have a understanding of the technology or the abilities of multirotor craft.

1. The A test requires you to fly with all stabalisation turned off.
Some flight controllers don't even offer this as a mode, and others such as the very popular pixhawk (which i fly) offer this as the most difficult mode to fly in called Acro mode (Which makes the craft fly as though its an aeroplane). This is not that relevant to multirotors which are used for filming or commercial purposes, and should not be a requirement of the A Test. I am certain this is not part of the BNUC-S commercial qualification you need to fly in a commercial environment. Why should a hobby test require such a thing.

The A test should be designed to prove that a pilot can safely operate their craft and can control their craft in a safe way. However I agree that GPS should not be allowed during the test, as that really does make the craft fairly un-crashable.

2. The B test requires that you do a loop!
This is wholey inappropriate for multirotors.
They are not designed to do this, and there is no way I would even chance this with my craft.
Some guys with absolutely no fear and small cheap craft have achieved this, but in my opinion this is not relevant to multirotor flying as a whole, and should certainly not be a part of a test.

Generally the test seems to of been largely copied from the helicopter tests, with no real well though out tests for multirotor pilots.

Any thoughts ?

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

Hi Martin and welcome to the forum.

Funny you should mention these things, the loop question at least is being discussed in this thread,

[Martin Turner 3]

To release these tests in that state is a very poor show. When you consider that multirotors are probably the fastest growing part of our hobby right now, it seems to me they didn't even ask someone who knew about multirotors to write the tests. What?

Multirotors and other cheap toys offer the BMFA and RC Clubs an opportunity to connect with youngsters who maybe got something from Maplins for Christmas, and to encourage kids into the hobby in a safe and controlled way.


RANT!
I am losing faith in the BMFA to be honest. I don't think as a whole they are helping our hobby move forward. They are in serious danger of becoming irrelevant over the next 20 years.

There are to many bow tie dinners for the over 60's and not enough FPV drone racing competitions for my liking. They need to get kids off of their computer games and get them interested. Hard I know, but it can be done! 

They need to make our hobby more cool. As it stands it appears the hobby will die out with the current generation. You only have to look at our club. I can only think of one member who is less that 20 years old, and i am part of a big club. My kids are not interested.

I can't understand why they constantly talk about free flight or control line flying in their magazine, which is surely a very small part of the hobby and something from a bygone era. That is not going to interest the kids.

I recognise that they have done very good work in the past to promote and protect our hobby, but in my mind they have not kept up with the times.

The current trend of flying boring schedules (which I recognise is very skillful) such as F3a and F3p is not good to watch, and as a spectator sport, to my mind it isn't really.

How about a competition where you have 20 planes all racing all at the same time or mixed craft where it really dosen't matter what craft you enter, you have to go the fastest through 100m. That would be interesting, and generate some real innovation.

Also - Why is there not a national show?

Sorry for the rant, but if something doesn't change, I think the hobby will die out with the current generation, and then get banned.

Edited By Martin Turner 3 on 30/06/2015 07:08:15

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Hi Martin,

I agree with a lot of what you say. I too believe that the MR A and B tests are completely out of touch with what these aircraft are and what they do - and as such do not constitute a reasonable test of someone flying them. The A-test is the better of the two - but even that is far from being a good test on MR piloting ability.

Like you I strongly suspect that both these tests were assembled without significant input from the MR flying community. In fact if you compare them to the helicopter A and B you will fully understand their origin! Actually, and somewhat embarrassingly, in the in the first version of the test they had even forgotten to change the word helicopter to multi-rotor in places!

But I'm afraid it does not stop there. You may be aware that last March the CAA decided that an MR A-cert would be accepted as one of the approved the "qualification elements" for the granting of a permit - as an alternative to BNUC-S. The BMFA have actually challenged this with CAA - they are saying that the standard should be a B-cert!!!

Now if you are familiar with the BNUC-S flight test you will know that the BMFA A-cert is already much more difficult than the BNUC-S equivalent due to the requirement to carry it out entirely in manual or "acro" mode. You can fly most of the BNUC-S test in GPS-Lock and you may be asked to demonstrate your ability to fly in Attitude-hold - but never in manual.

In my view this decision shows incredible ignorance of what MR's are about and what professional MR operation is like, where most operations are carried out with every stabilisation mode possible turned on!

I have connected the BMFA in the form of Manny about this - but the response was I am sad to say somewhat dismissive - "Auntie BMFA knows best dear". I can only urge you to similarly raise this issue with BMFA, as if more of us who actually have experience of flying MR's and BNUC-S etc talk to them they just might begin to see that it may be worth listening! The Association's track record on listening isn't good, but you never know.

BEB

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

If it's of any encouragement, I know that at least one member of the scheme review committee has bought a multirotor recently, in order to gain experience of the type.

I would say that although the CAA appear to recognise the A as a qualification, as far as I'm aware, it has always been the intention of the BMFA scheme to be recognition of achievement, not any form of licence - therefore there is probably little value perceived in simply demonstrating awareness of safety and that you can operate something that requires a minimum of skill in very stabilised modes.

I can't comment on the looping for the B as I have very limited experience (and interest) in multirotors. Perhaps, with your professional experience at the university BEB, you would do better to contact the scheme controller and offer your advice on what would constitute a better B test?

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I have tried contacting BMFA Martin - and making them aware of my qualifications and experience - sadly it seemed to have little impact.

For the CAA, in terms of the Permit, they say the most important aspects are:

1. Airmanship - in particular awareness of the ANO and its stipulations, also awareness of CAP722.

2. Physical demonstration of safe flying practices.

The A cert is, in my opinion, more than adequate for this purpose and indeed as I have mentioned actually constitutes a much higher flying skill standard than the "officially recognised" BNUC-S flight test which the CAA oversee! And I have pointed this out to BMFA.

Personally I have no problem with the requirement that the A-cert includes includes manual flying as I believe that in order to demonstrate safe flying it should be necessary to show the capability of flying the device unstabilised. My issue is that the test does not examine several other aspects of safe MR operation at all.

As I have said - the A test is better than the B - but there is considerable scope for improvement. I would like to see a pilot have to demonstrate flight control in GPS, Attitude hold and manual during different elements of the test. Also to demonstrate safe interchange between these modes in flight. I would also like to see more "MR-like" manuouvres which are more representative of how these aircraft are actually flown - they may be similar to helicopters but they are not the same!

If your friend on the achievement committee would like to speak with me in more detail I will extend the same invitation to him as I did to the committee (through Manny) - i.e. that I would be delighted to help and have an input that they could at least consider. It might be interesting to know if that invitation from me ever actually reached the ears of the committee? If your colleague would like to contact me just PM me and I'll supply an email address he can use if he wishes.

BEB

[Erfolg]

I do not fly any quad beyond a so called toy.

It strikes me that my toy is designed to essentially fly itself. It has not been designed along the lines of the rules of golf, that is to make it difficult as possible to put a ball in a hole, using a stick. My toy has been designed to be flown by anyone, with little skill, all you have to do is steer it and maintain height.

I can see the point of "A" tests of all types in increasing awareness of legal responsibility and general codes of practise and finally safe handling.

If technology is driving the operation of models of all types in making greater use of aids, do you not just accept the fact and ensure that all tests are appropriate to present state of the art.

I just wonder if the "A" test had been conceived in the 50s, would we still be required to use a single channel bang-bang escapement, the use of proportional radios and servos seen as unacceptable.

I see no point in making things difficult, that is without purpose. In my mind what needs to be tested, how is a model brought to ground safely, when things go wrong. For me that is using technology and procedures as appropriate, particularly when the aircraft is equipped with aids.

I suspect that aids will become the norm for all types of models in the future, tests need to reflect the facts on the ground and be appropriate.

[Dickw]

There is a news item on the BMFA site relating to the A & B schemes, and the latest updates to the B cert include a diagram of the loop:-

**LINK**

Dick

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Sounds promising but best not comment too much because it's best coming from the folk that fly multis or use the gizmos....maybe a video as well eh

John

[Mark Stringer]

Now that time has passed and the dust settled. ...can anyone (preferably an examiner) tell me what mode you need to be in to take the A cert with a quadcopter using an APM and / or a CC3D flight controller

I would like to get my A and will build a quad to do it. I have both controllers to hand and will probably use the APM as i love the functionality with GPS, 3DR and telemetry to my Taranis but need to be sure it has a suitable flight mode available fir the test.

Thanks

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Multi rotor test

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Well first of all I wouldn't bother the average examiner on this issue! In my experienece most club examiners haven't got the slightest clue about the answer to that question!

[There are a few honourable exceptions of course - so before you post indignantly claiming you know - I'll just happily accept that you are one of the exceptions! ]

The APM mode that most clearly satisfies the requirements of the A test is "acro" mode. However, the APM has some very complex mode features and its possible that you could argue that "sport" mode also satisfies the conditions of the test, in one reading. But of course "sport" mode is easier to fly in than "acro"!

I have to say that I think acro meets not only the letter of the test, but also the spirit of the test. Whereas sport mode might satisfy the letter of the law but, I my opinion, its cheating a bit becuase it certainly doesn't obey the spirit of what is intended. But having said that, unless the examiner was a pretty good MR pilot himself, and actually took the trouble to fly the machine, he could not tell! It is almost impossible to tell the difference just by looking at the flight.

So - how honest are you!

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 16/03/2016 23:25:38

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 16/03/2016 23:27:58

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I most certainly don't claim any MR expertise - I've had a quick stir of the odd one or two but they do nothing for me.

But - the guidance that I was given is if in any doubt, to ask the pilot to centralise and release the controls - if it stays in a stable hover, it's non-compliant. At the end of the day, it's an achievement test and if someone is devious enough to build in a cheat mode then they are really only cheating themselves!