Stevo Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 All children to know thier time tables by the end of Primary School - as well as how to punctuate - and even spell. Before I blow a fuse - anyone else care to rant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cymaz Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 My kids knew their TT's by 8/9 years of age, up to 9x. Kumon helped them all the way....it takes a lot of time from the parents as well, checking and marking but it can help them to in a round about way Edited By cymaz on 01/02/2015 17:18:08 Edited By cymaz on 01/02/2015 17:18:38 Edited By cymaz on 01/02/2015 17:19:06 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 As did mine, and as did I! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatMc Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 If all children are able to use punctuation & to spell by the time the end of primary school perhaps they could teach some of the teachers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denis parkinson Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I run a fairly large classified buying and selling group on F/Book.. It does my head in when I see members advertising high value items, and hope to be taken seriously, even though their adverts are littered with spelling mistakes, or they write it as a text message.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparks Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 They could also teach them how to spell 'their'. Sorry, I couldn't resist that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 Touche, Sparks!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Bennett Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 i used to work in a junior school and the number of children who came up from primary school unable to read was astounding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingman Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 They've all got mobile phones with calculators nowadays so they don't need to count also the 11 and 12 times tables aren't relevant anymore cos we don't have 12 pennies in a shilling anymore and we're not suppose to have 12 inches in a foot either. They have spell checkers on their phones and computers which spell wrong but they know what you mean. They don't need to do exams or know anything cos they just ask Google or Siri or Cortana and then they copy and paste so they don't need to write They don't need to know anything about model planes cos they can just take one out of a box get dad to stick batteries in it and then tell it where to go using their phone. And if adults get on to them they just pull up their hoods and open up Facebook - they're awe doomed a tell ye, awe doooommmed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 That cracked me up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy48 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Frankly this is just politics. Children have always learned their tables at school. Its been in the National Curriculum for the last 25 years. Only a politician would dream of returning to the 12 times tables though. Anything past 10 times is unnecessary. Kids today are taught a range of mental arithmetic strategies. Now for a challenge. How would you define knowing your tables? Children also learn to punctuate and spell. However, one has to recognise that things like spelling are a lifelong learning process. One could learn the rules "I before E except after C, " for example. Then try and spell science! I would strongly suggest that people look at the standard expected of an 11 year old. I would guess many adults would fail the KS2 maths or English or both. Finally. ALL children to know, to be able to etc. ... tested at KS2. Any child absent from one exam fails that subject. How on earth are our wonderful politicians going to ensure that every 11 year old in England is going to be present every day for the week of the tests? How on earth are our wonderful politicians going to get even the most severely handicapped child to get to this level of learning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingman Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Neatly links to the rant thread POLITICIANS!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin b Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I agree innit ? How about teaching them a little dress sense as well ? Edited By kevin b on 01/02/2015 20:21:38 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon burch Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Interesting to see the comments. I'm a secondary maths teacher and it's shocking to see the poor levels of maths a large majority of the kids turn up with after effectively 6 years of education. The kids who do well are supported at home or encouraged to practice. If you don't have that, it is an uphill battle and we are trying to do our best. There is a big shortage of teachers............I wonder why? Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prop Nut Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Children haven't always learned multiplication tables at school. In 2003 there was a Channel 4 programme called 'That'll Teach 'em', where a group of teenage boys and girls were taken back to education in the 'fifties. One of the girls was predicted to get an A grade at mathematics in her real school, but struggled with the maths syllabus of the 'fifties. She was astounded when a teacher explained the four times table to her, as she had never been taught it, or any other, at school or at home. She was delighted and went round exclaiming 'It really helps to do maths when you know the tables'. In the same series, the group were given an 11 Plus paper to do, without being told that's what it was. Afterwards, when asked what they thought they had taken, they mostly said it was an O Level exam! They were devastated to find that most of them couldn't pass an exam at sixteen that pupils of the 'fifties and 'sixties took at ten or eleven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Posted by Andy48 on 01/02/2015 19:48:32: Children also learn to punctuate and spell. However, one has to recognise that things like spelling are a lifelong learning process. One could learn the rules "I before E except after C, " for example. Then try and spell science! It's funny, but very few people ever use the full version of this little ditty...I before E except after C, when the sound is EE. Try it on your favourite "exceptions". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy48 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Posted by Prop Nut on 01/02/2015 20:38:40: Children haven't always learned multiplication tables at school. In 2003 there was a Channel 4 programme called 'That'll Teach 'em', where a group of teenage boys and girls were taken back to education in the 'fifties. One of the girls was predicted to get an A grade at mathematics in her real school, but struggled with the maths syllabus of the 'fifties. She was astounded when a teacher explained the four times table to her, as she had never been taught it, or any other, at school or at home. She was delighted and went round exclaiming 'It really helps to do maths when you know the tables'. In the same series, the group were given an 11 Plus paper to do, without being told that's what it was. Afterwards, when asked what they thought they had taken, they mostly said it was an O Level exam! They were devastated to find that most of them couldn't pass an exam at sixteen that pupils of the 'fifties and 'sixties took at ten or eleven. Yes they have always been taught the tables, the National Curriculum is a legal obligation on schools. This is purely anecdotal from one pupil, probably designed to make good TV. Maybe she had forgotten her tables. As I pointed out above, I defy anyone to actually define in measurable terms what knowing ones tables means. Maths, as a subject has changed in the way it is taught and what is taught. It is little wonder that pupils could not do a 50s paper or an 11 plus, though not necessarily any easier. Incidentally, in the 50s, the GCE pass rate was just over 10%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prop Nut Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 That's as I was taught it Martin, along with many other things that have stayed with me throughout my life. My CofE primary headmaster taught two classes in one long room; one group were about to do the Eleven Plus, the other were in the year before. He would do some lessons with both classes, then set work for one whilst he taught the other, then reverse the process. He had a very high pass rate and must have worked his socks off whilst making it all look very easy. It took me twenty years to realise just how much I owed him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy48 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Posted by simon burch on 01/02/2015 20:34:55: Interesting to see the comments. I'm a secondary maths teacher and it's shocking to see the poor levels of maths a large majority of the kids turn up with after effectively 6 years of education. The kids who do well are supported at home or encouraged to practice. If you don't have that, it is an uphill battle and we are trying to do our best. There is a big shortage of teachers............I wonder why? Simon Personally, I've been more shocked at the standard of secondary maths teaching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin b Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I can sense a "soap box" session coming on ! When I was young (a long while ago). most of the male teachers were ex-forces, so you didn't cross them. A lot of the female teachers were quite maternal and nobody ever argued with mother !!! The one subject missing from the curriculum at ALL levels of education in this country is respect and how to earn it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essjay Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Posted by kevin b on 01/02/2015 20:57:27: I can sense a "soap box" session coming on ! When I was young (a long while ago). most of the male teachers were ex-forces, so you didn't cross them. A lot of the female teachers were quite maternal and nobody ever argued with mother !!! The one subject missing from the curriculum at ALL levels of education in this country is respect and how to earn it. Here, Here, best post of the thread so far! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon burch Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 "Personally, I've been more shocked at the standard of secondary maths teaching." Shocked by who ? Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prop Nut Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Posted by Andy48 on 01/02/2015 20:54:55: Posted by Prop Nut on 01/02/2015 20:38:40: Children haven't always learned multiplication tables at school. In 2003 there was a Channel 4 programme called 'That'll Teach 'em', where a group of teenage boys and girls were taken back to education in the 'fifties. One of the girls was predicted to get an A grade at mathematics in her real school, but struggled with the maths syllabus of the 'fifties. She was astounded when a teacher explained the four times table to her, as she had never been taught it, or any other, at school or at home. She was delighted and went round exclaiming 'It really helps to do maths when you know the tables'. In the same series, the group were given an 11 Plus paper to do, without being told that's what it was. Afterwards, when asked what they thought they had taken, they mostly said it was an O Level exam! They were devastated to find that most of them couldn't pass an exam at sixteen that pupils of the 'fifties and 'sixties took at ten or eleven. Yes they have always been taught the tables, the National Curriculum is a legal obligation on schools. This is purely anecdotal from one pupil, probably designed to make good TV. Maybe she had forgotten her tables. As I pointed out above, I defy anyone to actually define in measurable terms what knowing ones tables means. Maths, as a subject has changed in the way it is taught and what is taught. It is little wonder that pupils could not do a 50s paper or an 11 plus, though not necessarily any easier. Incidentally, in the 50s, the GCE pass rate was just over 10%. One thing I learned at school was that the teacher is always right - even when he's wrong, he's right! However, when my grand-daughter took the 11 Plus in 2010 it was almost identical to the one I took in 1959, in the form and content of questions. It is mainly a test of verbal reasoning, so results or degree of difficulty should not differ markedly from one generation to another. One of the exam boards states that some of the questions test logical deduction skills or ability to decipher codes, but most require a good vocabulary and strong basic maths skills. The question of comparative GCE pass rates is a vexed one. There is widespread belief, even amongst teachers, that grade inflation has distorted them for decades and, from a practical viewpoint, why has it been necessary for many employers to provide additional tuition in maths and English to supposedly highly-educated graduates? Anyone who has recruited newly-qualified staff in the last twenty years will know the difficulty of finding any who can write a letter that makes sense and is spelt and punctuated correctly. As I have no desire for detention or lines, this is the end of my contribution on the subject. No doubt to the relief of many! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Price 2 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Simon. In my secondary school it was "with whom" !! The only ex serviceman teacher I was aware of was ex RAF and we just did not want to muck him around, no fear involved. He was just someone you wanted to get on with. In my final year when we were involved in exams, he would call me over and ask if I was up to date with my revision. When I said yes, he would tell me to take the next day off to go gadge flights. He sent for me one morning to, jokingly, ask what I though I was doing waving at him from the right hand seat of a Bovingdon Anson as whilst doing a quite low pass over the school playing fields - passing his classroom windows on the way!! Good times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Posted by robert Jones 14 on 01/02/2015 23:08:48: Posted by Martin Harris on 01/02/2015 20:42:14: Posted by Andy48 on 01/02/2015 19:48:32: Children also learn to punctuate and spell. However, one has to recognise that things like spelling are a lifelong learning process. One could learn the rules "I before E except after C, " for example. Then try and spell science! It's funny, but very few people ever use the full version of this little ditty...I before E except after C, when the sound is EE. Try it on your favourite "exceptions". The "i before e" rule was featured on QI, there are many more words in English when it doesn't apply than when it does, which is why it may not be taught anymore.Personally, I think it a good basic rule to learn, as long as you know there are many exceptions. I'd be interested to know a few of these exceptions - since realising that I was not taught the full rule, I don't recall coming across any. That's not to say there aren't some so feel free to educate me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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