Maths and English

[PatMc]

I don't agree with most of your logic there, Erfolg.

The OED accepts dozens of new words, new meanings for old words & alternative spellings every year mainly based on common usage, much of which originates from the USA.

Most English verbs originate directly from French but are usually simplified in the way they are conjugated. Many English words have been constructed logicaly from their Latin or classic Greek roots, some words originate from the old languages of the British Isles, some from Scandanivian invaders, some from trade links & of course many words from the Empire countries.
Our written & spoken language have changed since any written or audio records were made & there's no sign that this is about to cease any time soon.

BTW it's interesting that the space taken up by English in multi language instruction booklets is usually less than any other major language.

[eflightray]

English ?

Think yourselves lucky you don't live in this road, (thankfully neither do I).

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Andy48]

Posted by Erfolg on 03/02/2015 20:42:21:

When addressing the question of mathematics, I can do nothing but find fault with modern methods. There seems to be little that is logical about how both multiplication and division are taught. It is as if the mathematicians and teachers of old, were all total numpties. I found that I had to get the idea across that tables were a concept that if I had a group of items, which occurred a number of times, it could be expressed as a single value. This was done with a variety of household objects, from cutlery and anything else that come s to hand. Kids get simple concepts, that is not good enough for some with political agendas. I did the same with fractions, toast cut into pieces etc.

Contrary to the opinions of some educationalists, unlike language, maths and relationships do not change with time,. 2 + 2 = 4 or A + A = C and always will.

The comment with respect to calculators is just as applicable to computers when used in numerical work, you need to have a ball park value in mind, to recognise that the answer provided may not be correct.

I personally do believe that traditional ways of teaching have a lot of merit, that is those methods developed incrementally over many generations, Whereas much of the modern methods, discovered by modern free thinkers are often a product of their vanity.

I wonder how well you understand modern methods for mental arithmetic? Many such modern methods have been known for hundreds of years, they're not modern at all. Indeed the multiplication method you so dislike was discovered in the 16th century I believe. Far from being illogical it is very straightforward and develops children's thinking logically beyond mental methods. Most modern methods of mental arithmetic, simply follow the shorthand methods most of us learned over time once we finished with full time education. - "Back of the envelope" maths. e.g. just one method of many 8 x 23 = 184 Think of 8 x 25 = 200, 23 is 2 less than 25, therefore take 8 x 2 from 200 which gives 184.

Traditional methods, far from being developed over time, were simply copied from one generation of teachers to the next. These "so called" modern methods have been very, very successful. When SATs were first introduced back in 1990 about 50% of pupils achieved level 4, now over 80% of pupils achieve that, and a third achieve level 5 - the standard for a 14 year old.

Today's teaching has to be far more efficient than of old, in all subjects, and much thought and research has gone into their methods together with a greater understanding of how children learn discovered from using brain scanning techniques.

 

Edited By Andy48 on 15/02/2015 19:44:22

[Erfolg]

Andy

Unfortunately the method you think I have been made aware off is not as you describe, nor is the the method for division.

I have witnessed how children have struggled to keep tabs on what is the next part to be subdivided or tallied. The methods unfortunately quickly become cumbersome with any thing but small values.

I have no issue with any tried and tested methodology, particularly when backed up with an explanation of the concept of multiples or sub division.

Unfortunately it does appear that there is more politics in education than occurs in the Parliament of Brussels or Strasbourg. It would seem anything that is not out of a left wing think tank must be wrong.

As for quoting STATS, I think best left alone, as from reading newspapers another province of political bias, where ever lower standards were greeted as yet another triumph.

[Andy48]

So tell me which methods of long multiplication and long divisions your granddaughter is using? The example I gave above is a MENTAL method, not the grids method you will have come across and was first used in the 16th century.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

The worlds a smaller place now, there were plenty could not read very well when I went to school, same with arithmetic. Are standards lower now ? I don't know. I do know that both left and right thinkers interfere too much in the interest of winning votes and statistics mean whatever the particular party wants them to.

John

[Andy48]

I think you would be amazed at what the average 11 year old is able to do these days. Indeed while you will frequently hear the politicians going on about education you hear very little from the average parent. Most are quietly pleased. Sadly there is still an uncomfortable gap between primary and secondary.

In the 50's just 12% of pupils achieved 5+ GCEs. A far cry from todays 65% even if there is some grade inflation embedded in that.

[Bill Gordon 2]

Posted by eflightray neath on 15/02/2015 18:56:53:

English ?

Think yourselves lucky you don't live in this road, (thankfully neither do I).

Er...,I might be a Canuck across the pond , but isn't that Welsh?

[Erfolg]

I do not know about the 50s, the 60s is when I start to register GCEs. What I did and do know they were rock hard.

When my chidren took CSEs I also took them, via night school, so as to be able to help them. Already they were much easier than GCEs. We all past with "A"s alhough, I still would break out in a cold sweat when ever there is an example of a GCE presented (which has not been for some years).

What seems strange to me is that the ideas and concepts are down played, without the understanding of concepts, methodologies enable results to be obtained, particularly when the problem is one that is familiar, failing when the concept is not fully grasped..

In many ways i am not really enthusiastic when helping the grandkids with home work, I much prefer to talk about ideas and concepts. Simple things, if you have a number oranges, they can be grouped, totalised. Or a apple and orange cannot be added together, other than calling them a group, such as fruits. I always related to the Jaffa cake advert, it always works.

I cannot help with English, as I am useless at it.

Although i found that history was one that I have recently enjoyed relating to. Although, yet again, I think I have caused an issue. One granddaughter was taught that the Romans never controlled any of what is now Scotland. I brought up the Antonine wall and that there is known to be another further north still, up to Aberdeen, where they lived. Talking about why they (Romans) could be interested in controlling another group of people. More importantly to me, it was the idea, that the UK was a collection of small state controlled by petty Kings or thugs etc. Not a single or two entities. I do realise that there is a lot of politics in history, not just a question of perspective

My youngest daughter trained as a teacher, did a short time in the job, before the bureaucracy that she initially supported became to much. Eventually she told her sister, what is the point of micro planning each childs daily education, if you do not have the time to provide what is planned for that child, made worse by pupils who needs are so wide apart, that a common approach isnot possible as a group. Then who reads all the bits of paper generated when and why? Many of things i had queried. But then again I am not a trendy young thing that knows better than my forebears, as things are different today, we know better.

 

Edited By Erfolg on 15/02/2015 22:10:48

Edited By Erfolg on 15/02/2015 22:13:34

[Geoff S]

Literacy is much more important now than it was when I was at school in the 40s and 50s. There were plenty of jobs which didn't need a high level of reading - in my area it was coal mining for many boys and textile factories for many girls. Both those options have disappeared apart from a very few textile related ones. What that means is that those with poorer reading skills are far more exposed.

We've never had children but my nephews and nieces have all had an excellent education. I just wish I'd gone to one of their comprehensive schools than the grammar I went to. They enjoyed a much wider and interesting curriculum than I did. Most of then have pretty good degrees but the one I envy is Stuart who is now an RAF helicopter instructor at Shawbury but the chances of my ever getting a first in maths as he did was always remote

As for English spelling - there are those who call for it to be more phonetic and relate more closely to pronunciation. That seems a good idea on the face of it until a decision has to be made as exactly whose pronunciation should be the standard. As one who uses the short 'U' and 'A' of the Midalnds and North and most of the linguists adopting Southern RP speech patterns I fear it won't be long before spelling and pronunciations diverge again. I can recall, as a boy, that many of my Dad's older customers often pronounced 'book' with the 'oo' sound similar to that in 'loop'. That would seem to more correct but I haven't heard it for years.

Geoff

[PatMc]

Posted by Bill Gordon 2 on 15/02/2015 21:41:28:

Er...,I might be a Canuck across the pond , but isn't that Welsh?

Nah, it's supposed to be rhyming slang for "London Road". But the person who made it was dyslexic.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Not sure how to take that Geoff I went straight to the coal board from school, had to sit a written exam and a selection test and attend day release at college once I passed, then I had to be able to read a drawing and use maths to do my job.

John

[Chuck Plains]

Posted by Bill Gordon 2 on 15/02/2015 21:41:28:

Posted by eflightray neath on 15/02/2015 18:56:53:

English ?

Think yourselves lucky you don't live in this road, (thankfully neither do I).

Er...,I might be a Canuck across the pond , but isn't that Welsh?

Is that in Llansamlet or Birchrove? Just checking Google Maps.

[Chuck Plains]

Posted by Stevo on 01/02/2015 17:07:41:

All children to know thier time tables by the end of Primary School - as well as how to punctuate - and even spell.

Before I blow a fuse - anyone else care to rant?

Punctuate??? How many people do this these days? "I went to 3 different model shop's today." And have you ever seen a sign that says

THE APOSTROPHE INDICATES POSSESSIVE NOT PLURAL !!!

If there's one dog, say, the dog's toy. If there are more than one, say the dogs' toys.

Weddings, birthdays, christenings and anniversaries don't have an apostrophe.

If the parents can't be bothered, the kids will do the same.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I went into a pub a few months ago - the sign said "Kiddies Pop" - so I asked "Do they?" The landlord did not share my sense of humour!

BEB

[Geoff S]

Posted by john stones 1 on 15/02/2015 22:18:24:

Not sure how to take that Geoff I went straight to the coal board from school, had to sit a written exam and a selection test and attend day release at college once I passed, then I had to be able to read a drawing and use maths to do my job.

John

Of course there were highly skilled jobs involved with mining and I am guilty of generalising but there were also lots of jobs that needed skills that didn't involve high degrees of either literacy or numeracy. I'm pretty sure a lot of my Junior school mates would have had difficulty passing tests like you did. Just about everyone in my home town relied either directly or indirectly on the local pits for a living. Most of the customers in our family radio/TV shop worked down the pit and big part of the town comprised terraces built by the coal owners.

There are far fewer manufacturing jobs that only demand hard work and diligence in the UK. Our toys would cost far more if they were made here.

Geoff

[Prop Nut]

Whilst waiting in M&S, at the weekend, while my wife tried on some clothes, I noticed that the sign outside the changing rooms said 'Maximum amount of items allowed is four per customer'. I asked my eighteen year-old grand-daughter (A Grade English Language GCSE) who was with me, to tell me what was wrong with it, but she couldn't. I pointed out that it should read 'maximum number of items...' and had to explain the difference as she did not understand it. This particular grammatical error is made by people at all levels of education; I heard it most recently a few days ago, used by a university professor on the TV programme 'The Secret Life of Four Year Olds'. The most commonly repeated example is 'the amount of people', when it should be 'the number of people'. Of course, the educational establishment will trot out the usual excuse for their failure to teach correctly by saying that English is a living language.

[Cuban8]

That's very odd. Without giving it a second thought, I'd always use 'number' instead of 'amount' in the example given. It just sounds like gibberish the other way.

[Andy48]

Posted by Prop Nut on 16/02/2015 08:36:25:

Of course, the educational establishment will trot out the usual excuse for their failure to teach correctly by saying that English is a living language.

Yawn. Education starts and stops with school does it? Poor English on the part of parents and the community has absolutely no effect on a child's command of English? Whatever happened to the concept of lifelong learning?

[The Wright Stuff]

Posted by Chuck Plains on 15/02/2015 22:39:08:

Punctuate??? How many people do this these days? "I went to 3 different model shop's today." And have you ever seen a sign that says

THE APOSTROPHE INDICATES POSSESSIVE NOT PLURAL !!!

If there's one dog, say, the dog's toy. If there are more than one, say the dogs' toys.

Weddings, birthdays, christenings and anniversaries don't have an apostrophe.

If the parents can't be bothered, the kids will do the same.

Quite right! Bad apostrophes bug me too!

I've never been formally taught this, but I think I am correct in suggesting that there is one situation in which you can use an apostrophe for a non-possessive plural: when not to do so would produce ambiguity. This is usually only the case for plurals of non-words, for example: "There are not enough A's in my scrabble set!"...

[Geoff S]

Posted by Cuban8 on 16/02/2015 09:40:09:

That's very odd. Without giving it a second thought, I'd always use 'number' instead of 'amount' in the example given. It just sounds like gibberish the other way.

... and then we get to the difference between 'less' and 'fewer'. Just don't try to get me to attempt an explanation of gerunds.

Andy, above also mentions the concept of lifetime learning. English always interested me but I had to drop English literature as a subject in the 4th form because I opted for a science/maths curriculum. However I continued to read widely and I think grammar and usage is very important to avoid misunderstandings, particularly in written work (manuals and reports need to be produced, even by engineers). It's even more important when writing software - computers do what you tell them to do, not what you would like them to do. A forgotten # can have interesting effects in assembler that are very hard to debug - don't ask me how I know.

Geoff

Geoff

[Tony K]

Posted by Prop Nut on 16/02/2015 08:36:25:

Of course, the educational establishment will trot out the usual excuse for their failure to teach correctly by saying that English is a living language.

PN, can you point to a particular moment in time when the English in use was correct and any deviation before or after that date was not?

For example, until the eighteenth century it was correct to say "you was" as the singular verb and "you were" only as the plural (and the future subjunctive). Anyone using "you was" today would be considered uneducated. Who decided that the current illogical construction was correct and must be taught?

[Masher]

by Erfolg on 15/02/2015 22:08:17:

We all past with "A"s alhough, I still would break out in a cold sweat when ever there is an example of a GCE presented (which has not been for some years).

Sorry Erf, this is just not good enough! As one of the forum literates, I expect better from you. I need you to count the number of errors in the above quotation then write out a hundred times...................... only joking

[kc]

Shouldn't the Moderators circle all spelling errors in red!