Maths and English

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

It's all very well quoting figures from sources such as QI (which as I recall, failed to apply the whole rule) but my belief is that the concept that the rule is flawed ignores the important proviso that it only applies when the sound is "ee". If anyone can provide any examples where this doesn't work then I would be interested to know of them!

Edited By Martin Harris on 02/02/2015 00:18:22

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Not to worry this lad will sort it 1+1=3

John

[Dai Fledermaus]

Posted by kevin b on 01/02/2015 20:57:27:

I can sense a "soap box" session coming on !

When I was young (a long while ago). most of the male teachers were ex-forces, so you didn't cross them. A lot of the female teachers were quite maternal and nobody ever argued with mother !!!

The one subject missing from the curriculum at ALL levels of education in this country is respect and how to earn it.

 

 

I disagree completely. Respect should be taught at home not at school. A teachers job is to educate our children and grandchildren, not to teach them how to behave.

 

Edited By Dai Fledermaus on 02/02/2015 08:06:12

[Tony Bennett]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkbQDEXJy2k

Edited By Tony Bennett on 02/02/2015 08:33:00

[Peter Miller]

MY last job, 22 years ago, was technician in the Craft, Design and technology department of an upper school.

I once had an argument with the head of the English department. I pointed out that the pupils had no idea of spelling, no idea of grammar and even less idea of punctuation.

He said that what mattered was the ability to express themselves clearly.

He could not see that you can't express yourself clearly if your written work is gibberish.

I used to get jobs repairing stuff outside the department. If I was in a classroom with writing on the blackboard I used to amuse myself correcting it in red chalk.

As for respect. To see the head master trying to get though a door when the bell for break had gone made me boil. The pupils just poured through and barged him aside and he just took it!

Just corrected the "Typonese"

Edited By Peter Miller on 02/02/2015 09:02:44

[bert baker]

Blah, I can't spell or add up properly.

Does not make me a bad person.

I can glue stuff together and have fun.

Fun ain't that whoops life is about

[Robin Etherton]

A very interesting discussion.

I was a Mathematics teacher in Secondary school for several years after doing a PGCE as a mature student.

The course was pretty good at preparing you for the curriculum work but absolutely rubbiish for preparing you for life in the classroom in front of 30+ pupils on a Friday afternoon who just wanted to go home.

The point made about respect being learn't at home is so true.

On the question of tables it would be well to remind everyone that Maths is hierarchical in nature in that unless you know the easy stuff you can't do the hard stuff. I was a firm believer in every child learning their times table.

Robin

[Peter Miller]

The trouble with calculators is this. You feed in a calculation and anyone with a passable knowledge can see if the answer is nearly right.

If the person has only ever used calculators they just don't know if they have hit an incorrect key and got an answer that is wrong.

[Malcolm Blake 1]

I recall in my school days all our excercise books had a motto on the front cover :-

"Whatever is worth doing, is worth doing well"

[John F]

Posted by Malcolm Blake 1 on 02/02/2015 11:32:46:

I recall in my school days all our excercise books had a motto on the front cover :-

"Whatever is worth doing, is worth doing well"

That's nice. Mine wasn't as prophetic but good nontheless. It said "John loves Sarah"

She was the Maths teacher!

[ken anderson.]

I remember in my schooldays that all the teachers had a selection of weapons behind their desks to act as a deterrent to anyone who decided that they knew different to them...and they were always used on a regular basis......and we didn't dare go home and tell anyone you had been caned- or you would get another clip around the ear...didn't do us any harm at all...apart from at the time your fingers tingled......we also used to have an ex-army PE teacher..who's favourite punishment was to tell you to climb up the wall bars and hang by your hands until he told you to come down-that was fun/not... ....

ken Anderson...ne....1 Skool day's dept.

[The Wright Stuff]

Posted by Peter Miller on 02/02/2015 11:11:59:

The trouble with calculators is this. You feed in a calculation and anyone with a passable knowledge can see if the answer is nearly right.

If the person has only ever used calculators they just don't know if they have hit an incorrect key and got an answer that is wrong.

Absolutely, but I think this also suggests that 'using a calculator' is, in fact, a vital skill in its own right. Some of these are procedural things (for example, given a list of numbers to sum, do it twice: once top to bottom, and then bottom to top, and ensure that the same answer is obtained both times), but there is also the need to appreciate the rough size of the answer. Times tables are useful in this respect, but not the whole story. General numeracy in term of mental arithmetic is very useful. I can't 'remember' what 12 x 9 is from the top of my head, but I am able to do (12 x 10) - 12 pretty quickly in my head.

[Birgir]

“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”

Socrates, 469–399 B.C.E

B.

[Bill Gordon 2]

Weighing in from across the pond, I have to say the degradation in English and Maths is hardly a new thing. I was a printer for many years and had to explain over and over again how to calculate how many impressions (number of books ) were left on a roll of paper. I also had to help people with their(not there) notes, suggestions to bosses and even had to tell our safety supervisor that the forbidden iron based items in a computer cabinet were not ferris, but ferrous. I had a wheel long discussion with him about that!

But there is a lot of things that are left to let slide, basic Newtonian physics, history(now being rewritten to suit agendas) and a host of other topics. I finished high school over thirty years ago but I managed to hang on to basics and picked up a few things on the way to where I am now. Never stop learning!

Edited By Bill Gordon 2 on 02/02/2015 13:25:32

[Andy48]

Posted by Prop Nut on 01/02/2015 21:35:49:

One thing I learned at school was that the teacher is always right - even when he's wrong, he's right! However, when my grand-daughter took the 11 Plus in 2010 it was almost identical to the one I took in 1959, in the form and content of questions. It is mainly a test of verbal reasoning, so results or degree of difficulty should not differ markedly from one generation to another. One of the exam boards states that some of the questions test logical deduction skills or ability to decipher codes, but most require a good vocabulary and strong basic maths skills.

This is a good example of not knowing the system and coming to incorrect conclusions. The 11+ exists in a few authorities where grammar schools still exist. However, the National Curriculum completely ignores the requirements of the old fashioned, and long discredited 11+.

Schools today, even in grammar school areas, do not teach the content of the 11+. Indeed most primary teachers, even in these schools will never have seen such a paper. The paper is set by the grammar school, the exam is out of normal school time and is administered and marked by the grammar schools themselves. I wonder how you know they require "strong basic maths skills"?

All this seems strange when all pupils sit the KS2 tests later in the year, tests which are externally set, externally monitored and externally marked. Local authorities not only have access to the grades obtained (a very crude measure BTW) but also the actual scores obtained.

[Bill Gordon 2]

I just caught myself at poor English..." there ARE(not is) a lot of things left to let slide.." -I'll step quietly off the soap box now...

[Geoff S]

Strictly, it's " there is a lot of things ..." or "... there are lots of things ...". Though I think the former doesn't really sound right in practice but 'a lot' is singular and therefore takes the singular form of the verb. After all, you wouldn't say "There are a lot of it about.", would you?

I once had an article published in another model aeroplane magazine (guess!) and was annoyed when a some of my English was 'corrected' by the editor, wrongly. In one case he changed a gerund (verbal noun). There were other changes too but it was back in 1999.

Geoff

[Andy48]

..... and we expect all children to have a perfect command of our language by the time they are 11.

[avtur]

My older daughter is a teacher at Year 4 level, she tells me that the children (by year 5) would be expected to know tables up to 12 times ...

[Steve Colman]

I used to teach GCSE/A level Design and Technology in a very good Secondary school in Cambs. I could count on one hand the number of pupils that knew there were 10mm in a centimetre. The remaining multitude were unaware of the existence of millimetres and I actually had to point them out on a ruler/rule.

[Mr.B.]

You think that's bad. I just watched university challenge and one team of hairy numpties didn't know the aeronautical context of the words stalled, flap and slat. Don't people read Biggles anymore?

By the way I am not being biased as I am both a hairy, and a numpty.

[PatMc]

Posted by Martin Harris on 02/02/2015 00:17:17:

It's all very well quoting figures from sources such as QI (which as I recall, failed to apply the whole rule) but my belief is that the concept that the rule is flawed ignores the important proviso that it only applies when the sound is "ee". If anyone can provide any examples where this doesn't work then I would be interested to know of them!

Martin, here's a few to be getting on with : heifer, either, neither, reiver, weird, madeira, species achieve, chief chiel cockatiel codpiece.

[Andy48]

Posted by Steve Colman on 02/02/2015 20:56:13:

I used to teach GCSE/A level Design and Technology in a very good Secondary school in Cambs. I could count on one hand the number of pupils that knew there were 10mm in a centimetre. The remaining multitude were unaware of the existence of millimetres and I actually had to point them out on a ruler/rule.

Presumably you regularly visited some of the primary schools in your catchment area to see what D&T work they were doing, as any good teacher would. Did you not raise this with them, and what was their response? Didn't the maths or science departments in your own school do anything on measurement either? What was their response when you discussed this with them?

Edited By Andy48 on 02/02/2015 21:20:41

[Peter Miller]

Posted by Mr.B. on 02/02/2015 21:16:19:

You think that's bad. I just watched university challenge and one team of hairy numpties didn't know the aeronautical context of the words stalled, flap and slat. Don't people read Biggles anymore?

By the way I am not being biased as I am both a hairy, and a numpty.

You think that was bad?! Jeremy Paxman said that Angle of attack was the same as Angle of Incidence.

NO IT IS NOT. Angle of attack is the angle that the wing meets the airflow and is variable. Angle of incidence is a fixed angle between the chord line and a datum line on the aircraft. Pillock!

[Bill Gordon 2]

Well Gents, it would appear that we are indeed islands of intelligence in a sea of nit-wits! I would just sum up the situation in that the basic tools for life are being issued, but they're left in the boot under the rubbish.

Edited By Bill Gordon 2 on 03/02/2015 12:45:03