New Laser engines. What do you want?

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Unless you've thought of a very clever way to separate the header tank from the main system, I think you may find it a waste of effort - I thought the purpose of a header tank was to reduce the possibility of bubbles getting into the engine. Like Jon, I've never understood how they can have any effect on fuel "head" as the ones I've seen detailed are part of the same fluid pressure system...

[onetenor]

What about a one way valve between the two tanks.

[bouncebounce crunch]

I noticed an engine that looked very similar to a Laser on Hobby King.

[Don Fry]

Many moons ago I had success with a small fuel tank at correct hight, kept at about 2/3 full by a sealed secondary tank which was set high, and feeding the fuel tank by a simple chicken hopper system. Not complicated, except that the routing of the feed from the hopper tank has to be fairly direct so air can pass up from the fuel tank, to release the partial vacuum in the hopper.

[Scott Edwards 2]

I used 2 Cline Regulators on a 240V. I used a 500ml bladder tank on the CG of the model (located 30cm behind the engine), pressurised from both exhausts. This fed two Cline Regulators located between the engine cylinders.

It worked remarkably well, perfectly consistent fuel supply, and no in-flight CG shift (it was an F3A model)

But ... as John says, it was bloody expensive, bloody fiddly, plumbing everywhere, and a pain to operate. The Cline Regulators both rotted internally and I wouldn't do it again.

But, by 'eck the engine ran good !

[Malcolm Holt]

Together with excellent service and a lovely sound, reliability is the main selling point of Laser engines. If there is the slightest risk of compromising this then, personally, I wouldn’t change anything. On witnessing a dead-stick, the casual observer will make no distinction between a standard Laser and one fitted with an optional drop-down tube.

I fly from a fairly small strip in a steep-sided valley. There is little room for error and a completely reliable engine is of paramount importance. Lasers have provided this for many years so my approach tends to be to choose my models to suit my engines rather than the reverse. This is not as limiting as you might imagine.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Will a hopper tank system work inverted?

[Don Fry]

No it does not, the fill process is stopped, but the small tanks keeps the engine running normally until it runs out of fuel. Say you have a 2 ounce tank, 2/3 full, you have a reserve of 1 1/3 ounces of fuel. Good for an inverted circuit of the fields with a big mother.

As I said this system worked for me, was simple, and cheap.

For mother read motor. I hate spellcheckers.

Edited By Donald Fry on 24/06/2017 14:35:41

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[David P Williams]

Hopper or Header tank works fine inverted in my helis. But as stated earlier, it's just acting as a bubble trap.

[Don Fry]

There is a big difference between a hopper and a header, Hoppers are sealed in flight, and rely on reduced pressure to regulate fuel to the working tank.. Headers are just a high tank, with some sort of system to regulate fuel flow,

[Martin McIntosh]

If you can find one of these rare items at a swap meet then buy it. You can put the tank in the tail if you like and it will make no difference. Never tried one on a four stroke though.

 

Totally fool proof.

Edited By Martin McIntosh on 24/06/2017 21:31:59

[Don Fry]

How does it work?

[Martin McIntosh]

This should not work but it does for me.

[Martin McIntosh]

When you close the throttle the back pressure causes an internal tube to be squeezed which reduces the fuel flow. The tank needs to be pressurised from the crankcase of the motor.

[Steve Dunne]

I have a H9 81" Spitfire with Laser 180. The 20oz tank position is about 4-5" above the inverted carb line, so I added a 4oz chicken hopper tank immediately behind the carb. I have been flying it yet again today and it runs a treat; loops, rolls and general scale aerobatics without a hiccup. There is little if any syphoning unless I leave the plane standing in the pits with the throttle wide open and engine stopped.

You do, however, have to make sure that the tank is completely full before each flight, so that all the feed pipes are properly primed ( I didn't once, and had an engine cut after about five minutes. User error!).

Just for interest, this Laser 180 "pops" nicely when I throttle back - sounds very scale!

Steve.

[Jon H]

As a general rule I would always recommend moving the tank instead of attempting the setups martin and steve are using. While they are getting good performance from these setups they are not what we as a manufacturer recommend as there are a great number of variables which could impact performance/reliability. As a result it is always a better bet to move the fuel tank to where it needs to be as this rules it out if running problems are encountered. It is also much easier to make modifications to the model when it is being built rather than trying a setup like this and finding you have to abandon it due to some reliability issue.

I have spoken with Steve and Martin at length about their setups in the past and there is nothing wrong with using them if they are happy with the performance. But I wouldnt recommend trying it and I wont use a system like that on my own models.

[Jon H]

Just a small clarification on ordering things from Laser.

In the past we have taken any/all orders for things and quoted a lead time for items not in stock. Now i will not accept orders for engines not in stock or with a lead time of longer than a few days. There are several reasons for this move which are detailed below:

Its bad for the customer to hang in limbo as lead times quoted are not usually met and i do not have time to provide updates.

Its really uncomfortable for me as seeing a number of outstanding orders on the board puts alot of pressure on everything i do and it makes my life very difficult.

A great deal of time gets wasted answering calls asking for status updates on orders. As there is only one of me i can either answer the phone or build the engine. While i cant fault anyone for being eager to get hold of their new engine and accept that being in the dark is uncomfortable for the customer this time can be better spent.

Looking to the future we really need an online shop and all the rest of it. Its also 2017 and we really should have everything in stock and we (my boss) needs to get used to that setup as we are in a one click ordering world with next day shipping and quoting lead times of 6-8 weeks is not acceptable.

The end game of all of this is to make life easier for our customers as they can just buy what they want straight away with the minimum of fuss. As items will be in stock i will have a time buffer before having to build another batch instead of being always behind. This will not only improve my situation, but would also give me time to work on new products and perhaps offer certain 'special order' items.

I hope all this makes sense and if anyone has any comments i would be interested to hear them.

[Steve Dunne]

Good for you, Jon - a step in the right direction.

Just a suggestion - perhaps it would help if you had an availability summary on the website, maybe on the "ordering" page, which anyone could look at for a quick check on engine availability.

You should only need to update it once a week, taking no more than five minutes of your time each week. It would I am sure be very welcome to all your customers, and can only help customer relations.

Example:

Laser 70 - in stock, OK to order

Laser 80 - 1 week, OK to order

Laser 100 - estimate 6-8 weeks, please do not order

Laser 120 - in stock, OK to order

Laser 155 - 1 week, OK to order

Laser 180 - estimate 4-5 weeks, please do not order

etc. etc.

It should also save you dozens of phone calls each week...

Would this make sense?

Steve.

[Ron Gray]

Hi Jon. I have a small part time business selling parts and manufacturing parts for lawn mower racing (yes, lawn mower racing). To ensure that I'm not put under similar pressure my online shop shows parts as out of stock until such time as I've manufactured them or restocked from my suppliers. In some cases customers have to wait a few weeks for parts to get restocked but that is very rare and is usually a result of a frenzied ordering spree (very very rare, this is lawn mower racing after all).

My view would be for you not to accept any orders until you have a sufficient stock in place of ready made engines, some customers may go elsewhere but if, like me, they want a Laser then they will wait. Once you get to the 'in stock' status then you will have the one click, next day delivery sorted (a bit like Weston have).

So a little bit of pain initially but will result in greater sanity in the long run.

[Tim Flyer]

A current availability menu on line is a great idea, but one of the great things about buying Lasers is that it isn't just one click ordering. I very much appreciate being able to call for advice. The last two engines I bought from them are different from what I may have ordered. When I thought I needed his 120 I came away with a 100 and when I came in for a 180 I ended up with a 155. The Laser engines are all quite different characters with some long and some short stroke which suit different planes and it's great to have help deciding on which one. I can't wait to get my 100 going in the P47! Hopefully it's long stroke will give it some "pop" when back throttling like the 180 and 360😊

[Ron Gray]

Totally agree with you Tim. I too contacted Jon about purchasing a 200v but came away ordering a 160v having spent about 30mins chatting to Jon. I am willing to pay for this service but I can also see it from Jon's point of view in that he must feel under immense pressure to get the backlog sorted out. By the time I have got my 160v I will have waited for about 6 weeks, this is not a problem for me but I can see how Jon may feel pressure to get the engine built and out to me!

Again referring back to my own business, customers can order on line and can see if parts are in stock but i always encourage them to call me first if in any doubt about parts, that way unsuitable purchases become very rare. Having a website that can act as the front line for stock information is a great help and saves me a lot time.

[Jon H]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Steve, i see your idea but the issue is i am giving a lead time again which i may not be able to meet. I have experienced this myself when i ordered something on amazon which was due on XX date and the day before that date they added another week, and it arrived 10 days later. It was not a nice experience and not something i want to do to our customers.

I am leaning towards a go/no go as things stand but there is some flexibility.

Dont forget that its also me who would not only have to update the website, but likely design the flippin thing as well. Neither of these things are things i am good at

Also to be clear, i do not mind spending time talking to people and working out what is going to be the best engine for the job, that will not be changing. no matter what happens. 

 

Edited By Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 28/07/2017 11:40:46

[Jon H]

As a side note, when it comes to communication by either phone or email i have noticed a significant rise in the number of customers who seem to believe they can talk to me however they like. To be blunt, i wont deal with rude people, and if you want to be rude please look elsewhere for a powerplant.

The exchange below is not uncommon and usually gets ignored. The initial email is at the bottom, then my reply in the middle and the final reply from the customer at the top.

On Fri, July 28, 2017 9:47 am, . wrote:
> do not bother me with stupid questions, i want a price thats all
>
> On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 3:20 AM, <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>> Hi
>>
>>
>> All prices on our website are accurate and up to date.
>>
>>
>> I do regret that i do not have any 160's in stock at the moment and do
>> not expect to be able to build more until mid August.
>>
>> Which model are you intending to power with the engine?
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
>> Jon
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, July 28, 2017 1:25 am, wrote:
>>
>>> From: <>
>>> Subject:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Message Body
>>> Name:
>>> Email Address:
>>> Subject:
>>> Message: PRICE ON Laser 160v, PLEASE. THANK YOU,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This e-mail was sent from a contact form on
>>> http://www.laserengines.com/

[Frank Skilbeck]

Jon, one thing you could do, is have a notification button for engines out of stock, that way the customer gets an (automatic) e-mail when it's back in stock.