Traplet statement

[Jonathan W]

I too purchased the Aug issue of RCMW and it is a good edition. Also, I was looking forwards to the "Next month" Combat Fokker DVII feature plan by Greg Thompson from Oz. Looks like a fun plane to make and fly, so hoping this article will still be published somehow, or maybe as a plan only to purchase from Sarik.

This issue of RCMW is noticeably thin on advertising content, reflecting the current company woes.

[Erfolg]

I guess the ambiguity of whom owns and markets what, is a good part of the reason this site took the stance it initially adopted.

With respect to the new owners of the titles, they potentially have some immediate issues with their creditors, be it for magazine subscriptions to all the trade unsecured creditors. Many will be wary, probably declining any invitation to trade with the company until monies owed or trade only on the payment of cash up front.

Yet perhaps the group we all tend to ignore are the ordinary employees, many of which will have been surprised by the developments. In all probability many will remain very concerned about their immediate position and future prospects.

Many seem to be concerned about the future of the plans service. Even if digitised, hence stored as data files, the cost of maintaining the data bases of information, relative to the value of the sales, must raise questions as to the economic viability of keeping many of the older and less popular plans in the catalogue. In many respects I am surprised that without the add on CNC cut wood packs, that plans make sense at all. Given that UK based CNC services are relatively expensive with respect to ARTF models, it must be a small niche market.

[Martyn K]

Storing files (plans) digitally is really quite cheap. Getting them digitised from a paper copy (to a usable state) on the other hand can be quite expensive - and something that is often overlooked when people complain about the cost of ordering an old plan. Printing isn't really that expensive, probably about £5 per A0 sheet allowing for some profit

Paper Storage for 5000 plans (estimate) would also be expensive, I suspect that plans are only digitised when a copy is required, so storage costs could be quite high.

[Erfolg]

Martyn

It all depends what you consider to be low cost. My definition would tend to a description that encompassed the idea that there was a real and worthwhile profit. It would not contain any element as being a hobby that I supported.

In general terms it has been normal to estimate the cost of maintaining the catalogue of something in which is a fraction, such as 20% of the cost of constructing and populating the data base. Then there are the costs of terminal, space and file server costs. In addition there is the cost of employing the individuals and the hidden costs of HR, Wages and Salaries (can be in the HR charge), accountancy, management and so on.

All this assumes that all data files have been digitised in the case of old drawings. If paper, drawing film, or cloth drawings are involved the costs escalate. Old microfiche storage systems are used the output is seldom seen as acceptable in this era. Again there are still costs here, due to floor space requirements.

I would contend that any drawings which have not been digitised are seldom commercially viable to go through the process. As there is no legal requirement to keep them I would dump them. Perhaps a more evil act would be to give them gratis, to a competitor, just like giving a White Elephant.

In my view there will be very little money, that is if there is any money, to be made from any plans service, without some add on benefit from a laser cutting service tied in.

[kevin b]

Erfolg.

However I wouldn't have used the phrase "White Elephant".

More like "Poisoned Chalice".

[Martyn K]

Regarding the plans, I would have them... Or perhaps donate to the BMFA museum and loan them out for individuals to copy..

Martyn

[kc]

It is most of our British aeromodelling heritage! Somebody needs to keep it.

You should note that when the RC Modeler (USA) plans became unavailable commercially members of another forum managed to digitise almost every plan without having the master copies. In many cases the magazine plan was the only available copy yet they still managed it as an volunteer project. Almost every RCM plan is available to download. But as anyone can download free it has probably destroyed all commercial value of a once great plan service! I don't think we want that here, but it was better than the plans disappearing completely.

[kevin b]

I agree kc.

I think one of the reasons behind the RM plans being digitised was because the RM plan copyright owner (who got them when RM went under) did a disappearing act, along with a lot of peoples money. What happened to the original plans is anyone's guess, but if they haven't been destroyed, then I thought they would have resurfaced by now. I'm sure that if a copyright owner does appear, then the plans will have to be withdrawn from the internet.

Most (but not all) of the free plans sites do not list material still under active copyright and remove plans when requested. I know Steve does at Outerzone. Some sites even offer to print copies for you at a price. This is a definite breach of copyright law and leaves them open to legal action.

[Nigel R]

"But as anyone can download free it has probably destroyed all commercial value of a once great plan service!"

From this discussion it would appear the commercial value is very low anyway.

I can't help wondering, do plans fall under the designation of 'artistic works' for the purpose of UK copyright law?

"Artistic works, such as photographs and applied art: At least 25 years from creation."

I note that there are RM/RCMW/RCME designs over 25 years old being lodged on outerzone (and friends). I don't think that is a bad thing, if the copyright has expired. Being in the online repositories means they will be available, rather than sat decaying in a physical basement archive which no company can afford to maintain

[kc]

Kevin I think you should have said RCM not RM as you were presumably referrring to RC Modeler ( of USA) We normally use RM to stand for Radio Modeller ( UK magazine and now part of RCME)

[Erfolg]

There has been a problem with much of the UK model trade with respect to copyright. That is for the last majority of the stuff covered, there is little to no value in the copyright, Yet often designs are treated as if a substantial commercial value in the design.

It is worth noting that for private use some aspects of copyright issues are avoided, or issued by a library, I assume for study?

I am not sure getting bogged down with copyright issues is very productive.

A clearer understanding as how the land lies with respect to Traplet. What is Traplet now, who has got what and how does it affect us modellers, if it does.

[trebor]

I won't be spending money with this company, I thought the assets should have been sold off to pay what's owed.

[kevin b]

Posted by kc on 03/08/2017 18:50:41:

Kevin I think you should have said RCM not RM as you were presumably referrring to RC Modeler ( of USA) We normally use RM to stand for Radio Modeller ( UK magazine and now part of RCME)

You are correct, of course kc. Thanks for that.

Just as a thought, I wonder how many magazines dedicated to r/c model aircraft there are left now in the English speaking part of the world ? I tried Googling, but didn't get very far. There doesn't seem to be a lot out there.

Note to Editor. DO NOT RETIRE !

[kevin b]

Posted by trebor on 03/08/2017 19:20:18:

I won't be spending money with this company, I thought the assets should have been sold off to pay what's owed.

Trebor.

They will have been sold for the best figure the liquidators could probably get and the money has to be used to pay creditors.

What is winding people up is that they have been sold to the same people who owned the previous company. Not withstanding that those people have lost any money they had invested in the business and may even be liable as individuals for any outstanding loans to the company. The fact that they are prepared to pick up and try again in a not very lucrative market I for one applaud.

As somebody said in an earlier post. Nobody died.

[Erfolg]

I understood that the whole purpose of voluntary liquidation was to increase the options available to the business. I thought that is where pre-packaged liquidations came in, I can also why they can have a bit of a reputation. That is they are often just a transfer of nominal ownership whilst avoiding the liabilities of non secured creditors. In many cases the process has been carefully orchestrated behind closed doors. The first employees know about what is happening, is when they read about it, elsewhere. I am not suggesting that this has happened in this case. Yet in truth i am a long way from knowing the ins and outs of these processes.

No body may have died, although in some cases not related to this, people have committed suicide, innocent suppliers have had to sell their houses. Then there are workers who can also have their lives all but destroyed. Some people will have suffered, their plight should not be treated lightly.

At the same time i am very pleased that some of the business will continue, in what ever form. Primarily for the employees.

Will I deal with Traplet,? Well I will not cut of my nose to spite my face. But I will be wary.

I can see that it is not easy in this sector to prosper,. I can also see the efforts that RCM&E have gone to remain relevant to its readership. I am also aware that satisfying every one is difficult. As I have posted, i am not enamoured with SC or Quads, yet these are the judgement calls that the editorial staff have to make.

[Michael Ramsay-Fraser]

It is worth noting that the statement issued give no indication which 'products and services' will be offered. Like everyone else, I hope that the plans and parts are part of these products and services.

However, although I appreciate the view that some may not wish to deal with or purchase form the new company for whatever reason, that approach will only lead to the further devaluation of the plans and part service. If the market for plans and parts declines, how long will the service be available.

Whilst it may stick in the craw of some I would guess that this new service (if it comes to pass) will inevitably go the same way as Traplet if the modelling community doesn't support it.

[Keith Lomax]

Some years ago, a proposal was made to the BMFA Council that we take over a large stock of paper plans, with a doubtful future at that time (I think it was the X-List, but am not 100% on this). At the time we did look into it. The cost of storage alone using a commercial storage company such as "big yellow" (because the environmental conditions are important to prevent deterioration) was about the same as the business plan predicted in sales - without the costs of taking the masters from storage, making copies, and returning to storage each time. In addition there would have been substantial setup costs because the paper plans can't just be left in a pile so a storage frame would have been needed to hang them from, and also the cost of an appropriate copier or scanner and printer. It was a long time ago, and technology has moved on, and I can't remember the exact details of the costs etc., just that it did not make good business sense.

And before anyone suggests using the National Centre, there is a lot of money that would need to be spent before we would have a big enough spare space that was sufficiently warm and damp-proof.

[Rich too]

I may be missing something but why the need for hard copies? Why not just store them digitally?

[Piers Bowlan]

Thanks Kevin B for the voice of reason, my thoughts exactly. One or two disappointing posts from others on this thread. I have had a great service from Traplet over many years. I get the impression that the company was run by enthusiasts, like you or I. Some years ago when on one occasion they mislaid one of my orders they could not do enough to put things right, they clearly valued my patronage as they rely heavily on repeat business. Whilst I naturally sympathise with those that have orders unfulfilled, my thoughts are with the staff who now may be seeking work or indeed waiting to be paid. I have worked for three companies where 'the writing was on the wall' for some time but the end came very suddenly and out of the blue when the bank called in the loans.

A great pity RCMW has gone but I wish Sarik every success and I have several orders I wish to place with them once their new website is up and running. If we don't support them the plans archive will be gone and the hobby will be all the poorer in my view.

Edited By Piers Bowlan on 04/08/2017 11:32:54

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Nowt i can say that will change anything, but i would say the gents who feel let down and have said so, have a history of supporting companies like this, they're the very ones needed to support the future prosperity of the new venture, it's understandable they're a bit miffed.

[Cuban8]

I assume (never assume, I know) that Sarik will offer payments via PayPal, so we as customers are given confidence that our payments will be protected for whatever reason. I usually fight shy of dealing with any mail order company that doesn't offer PayPa,l as at least you will get a refund even for small amounts in the event of a problem as opposed to the £100 (I think) threshold for credit cards.

I've only had to use the PayPal guarantee twice in the many years and lots of money I've spent on a variety of goods, and on each occasion I've got my money back with no fuss (less postage IIRC).

BTW, I wish Sarik well.

[kc]

In reply to Keith Lomax. If the worst came to the worst ( let's hope not) why not follow the example of gardening? Various amatuer gardeners hold the National Collection of particular plants for posterity - each has their little speciallity. .

If the paper plans ever became 'homeless' why not distibute them individually to interested aeromodellers? A 'help yourself' day at Buckminster perhaps? I would be there! It would at least be better than scrapping and probably get decent storage for the majority. But let's not discuss this further but hope that the BMFA keeps something in mind for a doomsday scenario.

Edited By kc on 04/08/2017 11:49:15

[Richard B (DB Sport and Scale Ltd)]

kc, I'd be there with a good few shopping trolleys so you'd have to move quickly

[Andy Green]

I raised a dispute with Apple over my Jet International subscription which was take the day before all this happened

Please to report that I have just received a full refund.

Andy

[Nigel R]

" I usually fight shy of dealing with any mail order company that doesn't offer PayPa,l as at least you will get a refund even for small amounts in the event of a problem as opposed to the £100 (I think) threshold for credit cards."

I don't mean to derail things, but I believe Paypal are not a regulated financial institution (such as credit card companies are). Technically, there is a difference - you pay paypal and paypal then pays the supplier.

I've no objection to using them for small purchases - they're my default choice for that, far better than using a debit card for instance.

For anything past the credit card thresholds I would use a legally regulated card, the guarantees are better.