Electric Cars.

[IDD15]

Does look rather nice Erf, though SUV's and SAV's don't really float my boat.

The charging is impressive, 70 Kwh in 30 minutes. That's a 140 Kwh CCS charger needed which might be hard to do in the UK at the moment! Perhaps they should talk to Tesla...

I do hope Tesla get it together. If they go bump there will be a collective sigh of relief from existing old school car makers and things will just stagnate again.

idd

[Bob Cotsford]

Here's one that took me by surprise. You can't get a Nissan electric car on Motability. No Hyundais either. No Mitsubishi dealers in the Midlands - now to see what Toyota have to offer. PHEVs and electrics seem scarce for motability use, I would have thought that they would be promoted more.

Oh yes, the Kia Sportage hybrid has been taken off the list for now too!

Edited By Bob Cotsford on 08/05/2018 17:20:23

[Frank Skilbeck]

Was passed by Jaguar I Pace on the M5 earlier today coming up from Cornwall. I was doing 70mph when it passed me, looked like a full production model. Looks very nice, out of my price range but will give Tesla something to think about.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Erfolg]

Hmm Local Emmissions Free, strange diescription.

I had noticed that Hybrid cars could be required to be able to travel for 20 miles without use of a IC power source, as part of Government long term proposals. It seems that current Hybrids typically can only do 10 miles, a particular Japanese vehicle was singled out as an example.

At first sight it just seems you need a battery *2 the size now fitted. The downside will be the space required to keep the battery, which also leads to a weight increase, and so on.

I am guessing that the battery size currently chosen is based on the concept that others have mentioned, in that a IC engine running at a constant speed optimum efficiency speed, is a very efficient package. Probably much more energy efficient than a pure electric, when generation, distribution losses are considered.

I have just renewed my Gas/Electric package for my home. It struck me that the cost of gas per unit energy was 1/4 of the electric unit cost. I would expect that this discrepancy is an overall efficiency effect. Although electric kettles are very efficient, it would not surprise me that gas heating of a kettle is at a lower cost. Looking at the emissions issues, again it would not surprise me that gas distribution and burning creates less gross pollutants than electric. Part of my memory contains the difficulty of just getting rid of transformer oils, and some of the nasty chemicals associated with vacuuming down for transformers and switchgear.

[Frank Skilbeck]

We have plenty of gas too, if the anti-fracking NIMBYs didn't keep objecting to fracking.

BTW gas fired power stations are about the most efficient means of fossil fuel power generation there is, gas turbines followed by using the hot exhaust gases to produce steam, gives a thermal efficiency around 60% compared to an IC engine which would struggle to get to 30%.

[Don Fry]

Frank, as a correction, thermodynamics demands, that efficiency is a consequence of the difference between the hot and cold end of the machine. The science does not care where the heat comes from.

We talk about global warming, keep digging more fossil fuels, and burning them, and you, or your children, or grandchildren will die of the consequences.

I will be dead. But don't say I didn't tell you.

[Denis Watkins]

It will still be a beautiful planet as the water and seas should survive

And the simple organisms will flourish as well as the trees and the grass

Its just our lot are keen on breathing every few seconds

[Don Fry]

Denis, you are quite right. But the just our lot is the problem bit.

[Andrew767]

Posted by Erfolg on 09/05/2018 16:24:15:

Hmm Local Emmissions Free, strange diescription.

I had noticed that Hybrid cars could be required to be able to travel for 20 miles without use of a IC power source, as part of Government long term proposals. It seems that current Hybrids typically can only do 10 miles, a particular Japanese vehicle was singled out as an example.

At first sight it just seems you need a battery *2 the size now fitted. The downside will be the space required to keep the battery, which also leads to a weight increase, and so on.

I am guessing that the battery size currently chosen is based on the concept that others have mentioned, in that a IC engine running at a constant speed optimum efficiency speed, is a very efficient package. Probably much more energy efficient than a pure electric, when generation, distribution losses are considered.

I have just renewed my Gas/Electric package for my home. It struck me that the cost of gas per unit energy was 1/4 of the electric unit cost. I would expect that this discrepancy is an overall efficiency effect. Although electric kettles are very efficient, it would not surprise me that gas heating of a kettle is at a lower cost. Looking at the emissions issues, again it would not surprise me that gas distribution and burning creates less gross pollutants than electric. Part of my memory contains the difficulty of just getting rid of transformer oils, and some of the nasty chemicals associated with vacuuming down for transformers and switchgear.

Erf...You are forgetting about Plug-in Hybrids which can generally attain 25-30 miles as an EV. So "typically" is not the right description.

Andrew

[Andrew767]

Posted by Don Fry on 09/05/2018 19:37:47:

Denis, you are quite right. But the just our lot is the problem bit.

Don ....You are quite right...There are just too many of us!

Andrew

[Don Fry]

Andrew, no, as an animal we exist as our ecological niche can support. We seem to believe we can burn fuel to increase that niche. It will end in tears.

[Andrew767]

I think we have gone beyond our ecological niche but i agree with your basic sentiment. Sadly you are correct, i also think it will end in tears.

Andrew

[IDD15]

An interesting idea for gas generation and alternative to fracking. Good to see a trial plant is going ahead.

idd

https://www.ecotricity.co.uk/our-green-energy/our-green-gas/our-green-gasmills

[Frank Skilbeck]

Posted by Don Fry on 09/05/2018 19:23:22:

Frank, as a correction, thermodynamics demands, that efficiency is a consequence of the difference between the hot and cold end of the machine. The science does not care where the heat comes from.

Yes, but efficiency of a fossil fuel plant is a measure of how much of the stored energy is turned into useful energy and the rest just emitted (thrown away) as heat.

[Erfolg]

Andrew

The piece I put in was a newspaper report with respect Hybrid vehicles, as they now perform, and what the government are considering for the future.

Typically it seems that electric vehicle performance as measured under controlled, variable test regimes, differs to the experience as some advocates experience. Typically that there is a reduction in range with low temperatures by some 20% (how cold I do not know). That after repeated cycling, that pack performances has reduced dramatically, when measured with instrumentation. All of which can be acceptable to many.

I think it is a mistake to consider efficiency with respect to say, the Stirling Cycle or the Rankin and so on. My reasoning being that a awful lot of the used energy is ignored. You need to consider the whole life time energy used. If you run a business, it is how much the cost of the energy that matters to you. Carbon taxes have artificially distorted the power generation market, yet again this is only part of the cost of energy.

Probably the biggest step that could be taken to save the planet, is to have policies that reduce human populations. The UK being an example of a very much over populated country. We require high energy farming to partially feed the existing population. Cities that are expensive due to the land being scares for building. A country side that leaves little room for many creatures and so on.

[Nigel R]

" the biggest step that could be taken to save the planet, is to have policies that reduce human populations."

The sticky part is getting people to agree with you, assuming you've managed to have a balanced discussion about about population level.

And let's not mention the Catholics.

[Don Fry]

So, the most efficient reducer of human population ever invented is war. If we continue on our path we will fight for, water, phosphates, oil, gas, soil capable of food production.

Take care what you wish for.

[Alan Jarvis]

Comment: Funds bet on $150 oil as Trump blunders into Middle-East battlefield by rejecting Iran deal

​Perhaps we may see a few more orders for EV's now!

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Don Fry]

Oil at that price and we are all paupers, without jobs. That is global recession prices. No buyers for anything then. Look up your history lessons.

[Erfolg]

Nigel

I totally agree with you.

Yet all the other initiatives, are tinkering around the edges.

The reality is that what ever those wanting to save the planet in the UK and Europe, think and say, this neck of the woods is infinitely better than it was in the quite recent past. The air in cities totally filled with soots, industrial pollutants, where often the sun could not be seen on a supposably cloudless day. Rivers so polluted not a living organism was to be found. The ground in our cities often coated and saturated with heavy metals and other poisons. The sea and beaches choked and covered in sewage, often visible. Our parents and often peers, dead, well before their time. From my bedroom window a sky line dominated by factory chimneys, row after row of terraced housing, each with their chimneys belching out CO2 as well as Sulphur.

Now so many want even more people, cramming into areas outside of the cities, which represented the only lungs for the unfortunate city dwellers. Whilst advocating new build of increasing density, ever smaller living spaces. Conditions that many activists would be up in arms about if it were chickens, pigs or cows, as being unnatural, devoid of providing a quality of life for the species.

There are to many people already on the planet, the solution is not yet more.

Now I will retreat to my box.

 

Edited By Erfolg on 10/05/2018 21:34:05

Edited By Erfolg on 10/05/2018 21:34:49

[Andrew767]

Erf

Come back out of your box....the more people start saying this, the sooner things will change!. The things you describe from the past only changed because enough people complained about them.

Andrew

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Tom Thomas]

Posted by Nigel R on 10/05/2018 15:36:08:

" the biggest step that could be taken to save the planet, is to have policies that reduce human populations."

The sticky part is getting people to agree with you, assuming you've managed to have a balanced discussion about about population level.

And let's not mention the Catholics.

please? Lock up this thread.