The Future of the Mass Build

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Over on the "RCM&E - the Inside Story" thread the topic of if there would be a Mass Build in 2019 came up and it was noted that the Mass Build seems to have lost its way a bit and declined in recent years. Let me just briefly review the history of the Mass Build because I think there is an explanation for what has happened; I think the reason the Mass Build has tailed off some what in recent years is that it was effectively "killed off" by over enthusiasm!

I was one of the people responsible for setting up the very first Mass Build back in 2010/11. The idea came from something Stephen Grigg used to do, each year he set himself the challenge of building a model, from start to finish, in one day - Christmas Day! I got to thinking we could expand this idea and do something with it. I was keen to introduce new people to building from plans, woodpacks and kits etc.

So the idea was born, we would select a model, either a kit or plan but not an ARTF, a wide group of modellers would build it simultaneously, blogging as they went. The experienced modellers acting as "guides and examples" for the new builders.

The build started in about February/March or so and the subject was a model called "The Webbit" - a sort of small WOT4 clone. It was very successful - the build more so than the Webbit!

We decided to do it again. This time we designed it so that the model was selected late in the year for a building start at the beginning of the following year, catching the end of the building season and giving folks plenty of time to finish it before the Greenacres June fly-in. Again very successful, many people took part.

The next year it was the Tucano that we all built - again excellent, some splendid models were built of Nigel Hawes design.

The year after was, in my view, when the idea started to fall apart! There was a lot of pressure for more than one model as the subject and we ended up with 3 Mass Builds. This happened because significant numbers of experienced builders increasingly took the view "I'm not going to play unless we play with my ball". Which kind of undermines the idea really!

I believe this 3 subject Mass Build was a mistake. The Mass Build works when it is a concentrated, focussed and shared activity, the more you dissipate it the more you lose the point.

After that things got worse! What happened was we were placed under increasing pressure to start earlier and earlier in the year. Just days after Greenacres in June folks were posting saying "let's start the next Mass Build now"! They wanted model selection in August and actual builds starting in Sept.

We advised against this because it's very hard to keep the momentum and focus going for so long, it just dissipates, and as I've said when you lose the focus with the Mass Build you lose the point.

For one year we held out and insisted on a Jan 1 start. The next year people's enthusiasm got the better of them, they were unilaterally breaking ranks, organising things and starting building in Sept. At that point the mods just "sat back" and left them to it!

Interest definitely declined, subjects were selected that were too difficult for beginner builders, te activity was too spread out in time and started to just meander rather than have the energy and focus it used to have. And that is how we have ended up where we are!

So, what to do? Well, if folks want to continue in the current smaller scale more spread out format, that's fine but someone will need to step forward to administrate it. Alternatively if you want a return to a more structured and concentrated event (nominations in early Oct, shortlisting at the end of the month and final decision, on a single subject, in November for a 1st Jan start to the build that will have a many completions by March or April), we are happy to provide that. But we can't, and won't, run the event successfully over 9 months and multiple types.

Let us know what you want to do, we really don't mind either way, we are happy to provide a framework for this and support it - but only as a focussed activity returning to its roots, aimed at encouraging building for first timers

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 22/09/2018 11:25:11

[kc]

The problem with the 1st Jan start was that most people had holidays over Christmas and wanted to start then and not wait for 1st Jan which would have been right at the end of most people's holiday!

Some interest already in having the Ohmen as the next Mass Build - perhaps people should make sure they have bought the current RCME with the 'free' plan just in case. ( it must be almost time for the next RCME to be in the newsagents )

[Bob Cotsford]

In my opinion the problem lies in finding a model that will satisfy the experienced modellers, who you need to recruit as mentors, while remaining beginner friendly. If the subject is dumbed down too much you won't get mentors, who wants to build a trainer that they don't really want to fly? If it's attractive to seasoned builders it's probably too much for raw beginners. That was the beauty of the vintage build as it could encompass all levels of participant.

To an extent the Ballerina succeeded for the same reason. I wonder how many of us want to build another very similar model?

If it were me, I'd be looking at a single design, either a funfly type or another vintage model, but of course everyone's views will differ. I do think that if it's to be suitable for raw beginners it also needs to be quirky enough to tempt old hands.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Piers Bowlan]

I agree with a 'one MB model' rule, BEB, Also, as you point out, many of the more successful MBs in terms of numbers built have been simple models, e.g., Webbit, Sharkface, Tucano, and Pushy Cat. Likewise, Tony's forthcoming Mini EDFs (Mig15 & F86 Sabre) are likely to attract many builders too (whether nominated for the MB or not). What these models have in common is that whilst they might be quick/simple to build and suit first time builders, they are not really suitable for newby flyers as they are small and quick to fly. On the other hand, models that are slow, stable and easy to fly (high wing trainers) may not enthuse more experienced/regular builders to participate, in which case the the MB may not be so well subscribed. My point here (yes, there is a point!) nominated designs should be ones that are likely to be popular and simple to build rather than necessarily easy to fly. It is even better if they do both of course!

My other point is that I don't think the MB vote should be left to the end of November as some people like to finish their current project and clear their building board prior to starting a new one, one month is not really sufficient. Also, ordering CNC kits (if available), motors, engines etc, over the Christmas period can be slow and problematical as everything shuts down before the 1st Jan start.

My other observation is that you are likely to get more participants if a CNC kit of parts is available. If a design is chosen earlier rather than later, SLEC, Sarik or whoever, have time to produce one but they need a bit of notice.

Just my 2p worth.

[Dave Hess]

I'm thinking the same as you, BEB. As a relative newb to the forum, I saw various references to and threads on mass builds, but when I looked, there seemed to be loads of different planes/threads. When I looked close, all i saw were pictures of wings and fuselages, etc that people had built with lots of comments like, "looks good" and "coming on nicely". I guess hidden in there are loads of details about how people achieved various difficult things, but I didn't fancy trawling through hundreds of pages to find out.

If I could throw in a curved ball by way of suggestion, what about someone knocking up a sketch as a basic outline/ dimensions of something like a 48" wingspan Wat4, then everybody has to make one out of foam board. In the thread, people can post all their specific designs to achieve the right strength and stiffness, plus all their construction and finishing techniques. Something like that would drive the hobby forward using this very cheap and easy to use material.

If you don't know much about foam board, look at the various Flitetest videos, where they show step-by-step-guides to building their planes. Here's an example, and in case you don't know about Flitetest, they're basically a charity/educational establishment, who are continuously pushing new ideas for RC planes. They have hundreds of videos with all sorts of stuff in them. Note the FPV at the end of this vid. They give details in another one:

Edited By Dave Hess on 22/09/2018 13:24:27

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Still not completed my last two, so who am I to talk ?

What went wrong ? We talk too much, it destroys the enthusiasm and the thing becomes a chore, we argue about the start date, what it means, which is the perfect model, then when a models chosen, we post why it's the wrong choice, there's a few lads who enter and build every year, never moan, always helpful and enthusiastic, attitude is what makes it work and less talk.

Solution ?

Look at the PSS lads, one of the best threads every year, no bickering, all join in the spirit of it, keep it simple.

Select a model for us, cut out the various threads apart from the build and chat ones, meet at Buckminster if that's feasible.

Just build something and enjoy it, stop analysing it to death.

[Trevor]

Another vote for taking a leaf out of the PSSA book. They managed 21 maiden flights of this year’s mass build Hurricane at their recent meeting and there are still a few of us plodding on behind. The Hurricane is not the easiest build but is helped by the availability of a Sarik parts kit which, as has been said, surely widens the appeal.

I also support the ‘simple to build but interesting to fly’ aspect - just because someone is new to biuilding doesn’t mean that they are a novice flyer. Nowadays most beginners get their learning (and crashing) phase out of the way with ARTF foamies before they look to undertake a building project.

Trevor

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Well, some good responses there. Some things I'd agree with, some less so!

Let's just clarify a few points though.

1. Lots of folks are talking about "but a trainer won't be interesting to experienced builders". Who mentioned trainer? I don't think any of the models ever selected have been trainers or even close! The Tucano wasn't a trainer, nor the Dawn Flyer, or the Pushy Cat etc., etc. The target is novice builders - they are not necessarily novice pilots! So I agree with Trevor's point above.

2. CNC kit availability. Agreed a big plus. But just because a model doesn't have one shouldn't disbar it - I'm confident Sarik for example would be happy to create one if they saw there was a market - and can convince them of that.

3. In many of the best MB's we have encouraged the experienced builders to have their fun by adding to the basic design - doing retracting uncarts or adding flaps etc. This creates a challenge for them and gives the new builders an insight into how to do that sort of thing, all whilst still building the basic model.

4. The idea of a design brief type event is attractive - but I think it would scare the novice builders off - if they haven't built a model from planks of wood they certainly won't have designed one!

5. Talk of start dates pre-Jan just fill me with despair! If we have the RCM&E fly-in at Buckminister in Sept as te end-point, then start dates as late as April become possible.

6. Point about over-discussing this is a good one (he says as point 6 in a list of discussions!). Maybe the answer is we (the mods) just select a model and start/end date, let folks know and either you're in or you're out, your choice. If we did that we would probably propose: start 1st April, end at RCM&E fly-in 13-15th Sept; announce the model end of Jan - beginning of Feb maybe - so folks have time to decide whether to join in or not and if so order a CNC kit etc.

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 22/09/2018 15:37:41

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

I can't speak for others, but the model has never been the factor that drew me into the M/Bs, it's the fun of being involved with others, KISS works for me.

[Tom Flynn 1]

Well I have built 3 of the Mass Builds, those years being a single model. Also I have not started straight away as I have waited to read some of the build threads entered by those who really know what they are doing.

lastly I have waited to buy a CNC wood pack If one has been cut. The Ballarina has been the best, and I have just refurbished mine, and changed the engine position.

So for me if you have a single build I’m in, but the years we have ended up with several models then I have not bothered with the build or even bothered to read the threads.

So for me pick one model and let’s stick with it. Any model taking in a range of 25 to 40 ic size engine, or equivalent electric seems the most popular. Let’s stick with the build but agree on one model. Maybe after the battle of Britton TV programme we should pick a warbird, Cambrian kit or plan. It’s down to the readers not me.

[kevin b]

Hi Dave.

I must admire your stamina, when it comes to promoting our hobby !

Or do you just like pushing "it" up hill ?

This time I agree with you whole heartedly !!!

I notice that so far only one "newbie" has responded to your posting (his comments very much appreciated).

This is part of the problem. The mass build stooped being new builder focused.

The Mass Build thread should predominantly be aimed at the construction of the model and the techniques involved, in order to assist the new builder in progressing.

My other comment is that it should be a mass build, not a "mass fly". How many builders of the model go to Greenacres ? My suggestion would be to have a photo competition (as well) at the end of the build. 3 categories. 1. photo of the model. 2. photo of it flying. 3 photo of builder flying the model.

I have ducked out on the last few builds, mainly for the above reasons. I would get involved again, but it does need to go back to basics as far as I'm concerned.

Another thing for the mods to think about (though I am sure you already do), is that a lot of "newbies" come on the forum and we advise them to find a local club (very good advice). It might be worth remembering that to a fair number, this forum is their club, for whatever reason.

All the best. Kevinb

Edited By kevin b on 22/09/2018 16:26:17

[Piers Bowlan]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 22/09/2018 15:34:55:

2. CNC kit availability. Agreed a big plus. But just because a model doesn't have one shouldn't disbar it - I'm confident Sarik for example would be happy to create one if they saw there was a market - and can convince them of that.

Yes Sarik for example would no doubt be happy to create one - provided the time frame is realistic. I emailed Kevin Crozier (Mr Sarik Hobbies) last December after last years Mass Build vote result and asked him whether it would be possible to produce a CNC kit for the Grumpy Tigercat in time for 1st Jan start. He said that he had three kits in the pipeline and he thought it unlikely. If the MB start date is 1st April then no problem but I thought the idea was that it was a Winter build? But April is OK too.

The PSSA had the Hurricane as this years chosen model almost a year in advance, so plenty of time for a CNC kit to be produced for that.

As far as John's point about the MB being over talked, perhaps he has a point, although the thread title did ask a question!

Why don't you just choose a model BEB?

Edited By Piers Bowlan on 22/09/2018 17:18:28

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

I said we, myself included, don't take my comment personally. Why don't we post comments that may freshen it up or add to it.

Greenacres/Buckminster is an added bonus for those who wish to go, not the only reason to enter. Maybe move the best build award to the forum entries, and a best flight one for the Fly in ? Give some ideas for the mods to work with.

[kc]

People wanted to build over the Christmas period and not wait until Jan 1st. It's because that's when they have holiday time at home -they don't have long holidays well into the New year like university people. Short days, dark evenings and possibility of snow etc make building a winter occupation and that's when people like to start new models.

As for trawling through endless pages to find the important info - the Model Boat forum has Masterclass section where the info and photos are locked and the chat has to go on a separate section. We could do the same.

I have to say the Mass Build idea has worked well at my club - we bought 10 kits and got a good deal on the postage with a discount price. All the models are under way, some finished in a couple of weeks. Half of the modellers were new to RC building. Expect a swarm of wasps - the E2K type - soon.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Just for your information kc, most universities start the spring term in the fist week in Jan - so your concept of them enjoying long holidays is something of a myth I'm afraid.

I understand your reason but unless you are personally prepared to run this for 9-10 months of every year I think we'll move on.

BEB

[Graham Ashby (Editor)]

For what it's worth, I totally and wholeheartedly agree with BEB's Point 6 above:

"Maybe the answer is we (the mods) just select a model and start/end date, let folks know and either you're in or you're out, your choice. If we did that we would probably propose: start 1st April, end at RCM&E fly-in 13-15th Sept; announce the model end of Jan - beginning of Feb maybe - so folks have time to decide whether to join in or not and if so order a CNC kit etc."

The mass build concept can't work if organised and decided by mass committee. Answer: One model (the subject is almost irrelevant), chosen by the mods, dates set, you decide if you're in or out.

Graham

[Devcon1]

That sounds a really sensible solution to me, removes a certain dithering which I'm sometimes prone to....

Looking forward to the event.

[Richard Harris]

I also agree with BEB,

I do however believe that the model choice is really important and key to a good mass build, the early days saw some good examples.

Keep it to one model, nice and simple but appealing to the majority, cheap, can be easily modified and has to have rotors (just kidding).

There was a small little delta that was re printed not so long back, it was a quick build no nonsense model that did trigger some interest. Im not suggesting to use this model but something along those lines that will bring people out, build and help others. I wouldn't be interested in a model that is going to take months to build but I would be in something quick and easy where I could share and help others.

Another idea which I have mentioned before years ago would to all have pre selected materials and power plants then design your own,for example:

1 sheet of 6mm depron

4 sheets of 2mm balsa

10 pieces of 6mm square

1 length of 6mm carbon tube

Perhaps several motors choices, and electrics

etc etc etc

The only issue I see with this would be the complete beginner.

Just my thoughts

Rich

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Sounds like a plan to me, which model I don't care, I like the variety people come up with from a same start point though.

[Chris Jones 7]

The only mass build I’ve done was the Atom. The reason for this was it was a different challenge flying wise and still taught me a bit about building in balsa. I can get, a trainer, a spitfire etc etc ARTF. If the objective of the mass build is to encourage me to build then offer something that I can’t get elsewhere. For example, this year I’ve had a hankering for a free flight model. Plenty out there you say? That’s true but the security blanket of having others to build alongside would encourage me to have another go at the MB. Unfortunately if it’s another sports model/ trainer or somesuch then I know whatever I can buy will be better built than what I can build.

[Paul Marsh]

Posted by kc on 22/09/2018 18:16:55:

People wanted to build over the Christmas period and not wait until Jan 1st. It's because that's when they have holiday time at home -they don't have long holidays well into the New year like university people. Short days, dark evenings and possibility of snow etc make building a winter occupation and that's when people like to start new models.

As for trawling through endless pages to find the important info - the Model Boat forum has Masterclass section where the info and photos are locked and the chat has to go on a separate section. We could do the same.

I have to say the Mass Build idea has worked well at my club - we bought 10 kits and got a good deal on the postage with a discount price. All the models are under way, some finished in a couple of weeks. Half of the modellers were new to RC building. Expect a swarm of wasps - the E2K type - soon.

That's what happened to me, I started the build before the start date and all hell broke loose! I only have time off at Christmas and starting it on Jan 1st would be inconvienant.

As a result, I got annoyed with comments and the model got smashed up and burnt and totally lost interest of ever doing another MB again. Shame, but now I build for myself and do what I want to do.

[Flyer]

I started in PSS by partaking in the 2016 A4 mass build. The advantages, as I could see, was that there were so many variants available that you could build your model to be individual, whilst learning new skills that you may not have attempted by a mere plan build.

I was ambitious, and changed my A4 to the two seater variant, which on reflection, was possibly not the best idea I've had. However, the wealth of assistance on this forum helped my achieve a model that finally flew at the PSSA meet a few weeks ago, I know I'd missed the 'deadline' for the build, but I have achieved my goal which was to build a reasonable scale model which does fly. I have learnt so much that I have almost completed this year's mass build, which was the Hurricane. Of which, 21 models were flown off the Orme a few weeks ago. My model will fly when I've completed it, although I know I've made a better effort on this one to the A4.

The only thing for sure is that the encouragement I've received has made this possible. Perhaps less of a competitive aim and more of a 'make a version that you want to make' will encourage more people to build.

It is extremely satisfying to see your model with air under it's wings. I was still grinning on the Sunday morning. It has also encouraged me to build a few more this winter ready for next year's flying.

A suggestion would be to chose a model that there are several variants; that way people could do a simple model or push themselves to make it a little more scale like.

And, we must remember that the reason we put ourselves through all this is to have fun!!

My two pennerth (adjusted for decimalisation and inflation)

Ade

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Hi,

OK having taken the temperature of the water as it where - and taken your views on board - we've put our heads together and come up with a plan! See the new board and thread here.

Obviously we will be working to please as many people as possible - but we also accept that what we choose may not be everyone's "cup of tea"!

Thanks for all your comments and suggestion, they were very helpful. Here's too the 2019 Mass Build!

BEB

[kc]

The important point about start date for the Mass Build is that it is a date that suits the majority of participants. I cannot see any reason for 1st March being chosen - unless it just suits the Moderators! Will a date in the longer daylight hours flying/gardening/ DIY season produce more participants than a Boxing Day start? I have my views but they are not important - it's the views of the potential builders that should be sought.