Is it Just my impession?

[Erfolg]

I have been pondering a recent posting by David Ashby, with respect to Graupner.

During my musings, my thoughts turned to many of the recent reviews (in RCM&E) of model aircraft, the ARTF types. I generally skip through them, as they are often big and expensive. I do not do big and certainly not expensive.

I do have a few ARTF models purchased in the past, some in the far of, distant, very far back in time past. The models I have purchased were at the time low cost.

When I scan the MS adverts these days I do not get the impression of cheap. Many IMO are unaffordable, in that I would be very upset, traumatised (is this where Traurig originates?) when I crashed it. Or far more probable, the model through itself at the ground.

I have bought £100 of balsa and few odds and sods from SLEC, and cannot but think, that is now moving towards a situation where I can almost build from scratch (that could be a free plan from the mag), at a lower cost, particularly if my accessories and film are sourced from HK.

you get a lot of balsa for £100.

Is it me getting even older, that I have lost touch with relative prices?

 

Edited By Erfolg on 28/11/2019 12:56:28

[Piers Bowlan]

I tend to agree Erfolg, I am quite surprised by the high price tags on some of the foamy 'scale' models available these days, presumably they must sell (but not to me).

Regarding balsa models some Seagull models still seem reasonably priced as do VQ & VMAR, although here a little fettling may occasionally be required due to some quality issues?

Seems a good time to build from Balsa, lets hope that this wonderfully versatile wood continues to be available.

[Mike T]

Many years ago, both timber and foam ARTFs seemed ridiculously cheap. Since then, an increase in native production costs and the going south of the pound have put paid to that.

It'll be a long, long time before the pound goes back to $1.40/1.50 (if ever...)

[Lima Hotel Foxtrot]

Posted by Erfolg on 28/11/2019 12:52:54:

When I scan the MS adverts these days I do not get the impression of cheap. Many IMO are unaffordable, in that I would be very upset, traumatised (is this where Traurig originates?) when I crashed it. Or far more probable, the model through itself at the ground.

Edited By Erfolg on 28/11/2019 12:56:28

Depends on whether you want cheap or value. There is a whole world of difference.

[Erfolg]

LHF I am not convinced that the ARTF were poor quality in the past. Perhaps the last ARTF model that I have not as yet assembled cost £130, a Seagull (I would have to look) I think it is Gilmore Special.

But you do have a point, the latest ARTF that I have been trying to fly, has suffered a whole list of short comings, interplane strut end plates, pulling out of the wing, a major undercarriage failure, and that after strengthening as per posts, and a new tailplane making, due to the original being made from chewing gum, partially failing during flight at some point.

[eflightray]

I could get a lot of Depron compared to balsa prices, that's what initially converted me to Depron. Sadly the original white Depron is no longer available, the 'new' grey Depron just isn't the same.

I too have a few ARF models, but scratch building was what kept my interest.

From an ARF buyers point of view, you get almost everything in one package, no having to order hinges, horns, pushrods, links, piano wire, wheels, even screws etc, etc. Then there are the postage costs, as people may not know all the things they need to buy in one order, and the interminable wait for things to arrive, does make ARFs seem a reasonable way to go. Add to that getting a nice scale looking molded and detailed foam ARF model, against making your own 'box with a wing on it', must appeal to a lot of beginners, and probably some long term fliers.

Then there is that big 'need' for the latest model that just came out that seems to affect some people, regardless of the cost. You only have to see threads on, 'how many models do you have', to know there are still people who will spend regardless.

What does surprise me regarding cost, is what some people try to sell their used models for in the classified, do they really sell them at those prices ?

Next year I will probably be selling everything, (and I do mean everything, models, radios, and spares etc), but would ask a sensible price, probably less than some of the individual models advertised. Time for a change.

Ray.

[Trevor Crook]

As ever, it depends on what your interest is, your skill level and the depth of your pockets. My main interest is flying scale models, and building and flying sport models. Building a fairly complex scale aircraft would probably tax my skills and maintenance of interest.

Hence, earlier this year I bought a 1450mm Avios Spitfire 1450mm foamy for £270. The appearance of the model is superb, as are the flying characteristics. I still derived "building" pleasure from careful assembly, scale detailing and weathering.

I priced up the major hardware items you would need if building a similar model (motor, esc, servos, retracts, oleos) from Hobbyking and they came to about £160. I didn't include a canopy or the superb scale propeller. For a build you would have to add the cost of balsa, covering, hinges and other assorted hardware. I doubt it would work out any cheaper than buying the ARTF, and it would take a lot of skill and patience to make it look as good.

To simplify the build route you could buy a part kit of the (slightly larger) TN Spitfire, which costs £179. You would still need to buy all of the electrics, hardware, covering etc. and this would cost considerably more than the Avios.

That's the great thing about this hobby, there are so many aspects to it that you can tailor it to what you want to do. And most things are considerably cheaper in real terms than when I started RC in the early 70s.

And Ray, yes I've also noticed the crazy prices people advertise their used stuff for. I consider paying a maximum of half retail price for a very good condition s/h model as reasonable.

[Jesus Cardin]

In my opinion model plane hobby is just returning to its roots: an elite small and expensive hobby.

As I see main reason for the price increase we all notice is just the lower demand, which makes more firms go south and those still remaining reducing theirs production quantities, so greater costs! Of course less firms equals less competence and price increases too.

On current situation all point to increased prices and I see no change on a near future.

When I start aeromodelling in the early 70s, there were no more of 50 free flight and control line builders-flyers plus no more the 10-15 RC ones in my 700.000 people crowed city with just no one dedicated local model shop. Now, 50 years later we are back at quite the same figures.

Best Regards.

[Nigel R]

ARTF have to be built to a cost. I am not sure the wood ARTFs are very sustainable for much longer, not without much higher costs being recouped via the customer. The moulded foamies seem to reflect their manufacture cost a little better, and must be much simpler for manufacturers to handle. The market segment that was perhaps dominated by wood models - the 30 to 40 size - now seems to be occupied mainly by moulded designs, I think. I go by Hobbyking as my Belwether here - if they sell it, it is what passes for mass market in our lands, and they seem to be dropping the club size wood ARTFs.

For the wood models, consider the difference between what the materials for a wood ARTF might cost, and the time you would put in to building from a self aligning laser cut kit. For your time, you would be "paid" far, far less than even £1/hr. Even if you were working production line style, at high speed.

Building for yourself is about enjoying the building, the crafting and working of materials, the problem solving that goes along with design and installation, the finish, in short the creation of a thing of beauty. Much of that one could get from building many other different things, things that are not small airplanes - but we're here doing what we do, because on top of that, we like flying things.

[Cuban8]

Posted by Erfolg on 28/11/2019 13:58:17:

LHF I am not convinced that the ARTF were poor quality in the past. Perhaps the last ARTF model that I have not as yet assembled cost £130, a Seagull (I would have to look) I think it is Gilmore Special.

But you do have a point, the latest ARTF that I have been trying to fly, has suffered a whole list of short comings, interplane strut end plates, pulling out of the wing, a major undercarriage failure, and that after strengthening as per posts, and a new tailplane making, due to the original being made from chewing gum, partially failing during flight at some point.

Depends how far back one's memory goes. I can tell you for certainty that the first VMAR models (late 1990s IIRC) were awful....dead cheap but shocking quality and with a curious odour coming from the wood used whatever it was. - reminded me of the old Bryant and May wooden match boxes!

Today's Blackhorse and Seagull models are not perfect but not far off the mark. My old hack Hangar 9 P47 is still performing well and not looking too tatty after seven years of regular use - rubbish retracts though - see other post.

I dread what to think my BT 69" Mk1a Spit cost me - built from plans, (Sarik pack, so a couple of hundred quid for starters) this sort of model is way dearer than an ARTF of similar size. Not about the money though.

Edited By Cuban8 on 28/11/2019 15:14:07

[Frank Skilbeck]

Posted by Jesus Cardin on 28/11/2019 14:49:11:

In my opinion model plane hobby is just returning to its roots: an elite small and expensive hobby.

Yep, when I started RC back in the early 80s my first 4 channel basic Futaba 4 channel 27mhz FM set cost me £120 with 3 servos, today the equivalent no frills Futaba (the T6L) is £60, OK 6 channel, but with no servos!

[Cuban8]

Posted by Frank Skilbeck on 28/11/2019 15:13:52:

Posted by Jesus Cardin on 28/11/2019 14:49:11:

In my opinion model plane hobby is just returning to its roots: an elite small and expensive hobby.

Yep, when I started RC back in the early 80s my first 4 channel basic Futaba 4 channel 27mhz FM set cost me £120 with 3 servos, today the equivalent no frills Futaba (the T6L) is £60, OK 6 channel, but with no servos!

It can be as dear or as cheap as you want IMHO. Not sure about the elite bit.

[Peter Miller]

Posted by Jesus Cardin on 28/11/2019 14:49:11:

In my opinion model plane hobby is just returning to its roots: an elite small and expensive hobby.

As I see main reason for the price increase we all notice is just the lower demand, which makes more firms go south and those still remaining reducing theirs production quantities, so greater costs! Of course less firms equals less competence and price increases too.

On current situation all point to increased prices and I see no change on a near future.

When I start aeromodelling in the early 70s, there were no more of 50 free flight and control line builders-flyers plus no more the 10-15 RC ones in my 700.000 people crowed city with just no one dedicated local model shop. Now, 50 years later we are back at quite the same figures.

Best Regards.

The roots???...and then Jesus says in the early 70s. Oh dear.

Well when I started in the early 50s in England there were an awful lot more modellers.

The point was that free flight and control line kits were cheap and we could afford them on pocket money. Engines did take quite a bit of saving up for.When I look back to the 50s and 60s at the RAF Championships we had well over 100 competitors and don't forget, that was limited to the UK RAF personnel who were available off duty for the weekend.

As I have recently mentioned, You could buy plans as a sensible price. so that one could afford two or three at a time just to see if one wanted to build them.

Prices like 12 1/2p or 15p. which was twice the cost of an Aeromodeller or Model Aircraft.

Look at the price of plans these days. I can actually build one of my own designs for the cost of the wood that a couple of plans cost.

But in those days we made as many of our accessories as we could. Buy a tank for a control line model!!? An Ovaltine tin and a bit of brass tube and some solder and you could make two or three!!

Now I get people asking for copies of an article on how to make tanks.

As Erfolg says, £100 worth of balsa and you can produce a couple of nice models. Not only that, you will know how to repair them which saves even more money...no rushing off to buy yet and ARTF to replace it.

Building is at least 80% of the pleasure. Even if a model crashes on the first flight one has had the pleasure of actually building it.

But then...I am just a grumpy old man living in the past.

[Peter Christy]

Perhaps its an age thing (and don't take this the wrong way, as I have no idea of your age!), but I wholeheartedly agree with Erfolg!

"Back in the day", models were cheap and the radio gear was expensive. Now its the other way around!

I have a couple of scale "foamies" - a Messerschmidt Komet 163 and a Spitfire - both by Durafly. They both fly well and are quiet - ideal for a calm summers evening. I guess these were reasonable value for money, as they came complete with all servos, retracts (on the Spit), motors, etc. But I always feel like I'm cheating when I fly them!

Since I retired a few years back, I've done numerous "small" builds (2-3ft span) and two "big" builds - both in the 5ft span region - from plans: A KingPin (Aerobatic) and Jackdaw (sport cabin). I was rather shaken by the bill for balsa for the two big ones!

For some reason, I get far more satisfaction from flying the ones I've built myself than the foamies, even though the Spit and Komet fly really well.

Again, like Erfolg, I have no interest whatsoever in large models - say more than 6ft span. I have certainly no interest in large ARTFs, though whenever I've gone to the local model shops in search of balsa, that's all they seem to have in stock! Where do they find fields big enough to fly these? (Or cars to carry them?) I live in a relatively rural area, yet most model clubs around here do not permit power flying on Sundays, or many other days of the week!

Decent quality, attractive design kits seem to have completely vanished!

Engines in the .15-.60 sizes seem almost unobtainable these days - certainly at reasonable prices - but luckily I have quite a good stock of old ones in good order. Worst of all is the unavailability of decent finishing materials - like genuinely fuel proof paint or nylon style covering, especially since the demise of Solarlac, Solartex and Clearcote.

I can't believe its all down to a declining market, as the market for Super 60s and the like was pretty small back in the 60s, but manufacturers still managed to make a living from them. Surely, with the increase in population since then - not to mention the better automated tools available - it ought to be even easier nowadays.

I just hope we are seeing the bottom of the trough in the market, and that from here, things can only look up!

--

Pete

[Jesus Cardin]

Mr. Miller, thank you very much for your correction! You are totally right I should have written "model plane hobby is just returning to what I knew as its roots" as it is fully true conditions differ from times and countries.

In the other hand there is a couple of friends with different thinking regarding wood ARTFs due to material costs and new technologies relative to moulded foamies. Ok, from my personal experience:

1.- Foamies material and production cost per unit is largely inferior to wood ones, but cost of the moulds and then minimum quantities needed for profitable runs (no less than 300-500 units) make then less interesting to produce on a shrinking market. Some have already commented here a noticeable decrease on available foam models...

2.- Wood ARTFs, on the contrary, thanks to modern CAD milling and laser machines together with cheap far east workforce allow to ridiculous low figures productions. For example, I know firms like Black Horse and Seagull Models produce individual series of just 10-15 units for large models which is great adaption to current market situation.

Best Regards.

[Maurice Dyer]

My first radio, back in 1977, was £185 standard 6 channel am, 4 servos. Which is the equivalent of £1100 today.

Modelling has never been as cheap as it is today. But it's getting harder to find real modelling items.

And I even have to buy glue over the internal internet these days. But I don't do foam artf.

[David Hall 9]

It's an interesting thread. As an oldie returning to the hobby, I recognise many of the problems.

One thing other thing that appears to have changed is that some threads (this one maybe, many others definitely) claim to build from scratch using a plan. That's refreshing! When I did this many years ago a scratch builder started from ... er...scratch, (ie no plan other than their own). Someone who built from plan was a "plan" builder. Several threads on this forum describe a "scratch" build from plans.

[Peter Miller]

JUst a comment that might be of interest.

In the1950s there was a model shop combined with toyshop in Bishops Stortford ( I bought kits including a KK Ladybird and Jetex stuff there) and there was a model shop in Braintree. (I used to cycle 6 miles each way to it and I bought my ED Racer there)

There was a good model shop in Chelmsford in Baddow Road. ( I used to take the bus there occasionally)

Even Great Dunmow had a toy and sweet shop that stocked kits, balsawood, glue and a few other bits and pieces. (I bought many things from Dolly's)

[Don Fry]

I'm going off ARTF.

1. The pound is worth less, and they are then more expensive.

2. They have little love built into their construction, so their foibles, lifting skins, fragile skins, undercarriages and mounts built of fragile putty, crap fittings, engines falling off, no glue, wrong glue, a whole new builders skill set to sort the box out.

3. They fall apart without a reasonable amount of ups and downs.

4. Foamies are foamies. The airframe is tough. It ages quickly. Mostly it gives value for money. But what's to love.

Mind, one mistake, low enough, they all break, but a reasonable thing you build,

1. Is tougher.

2. Is the subject of more care, a hundred hours (200,300) to build, you just take more care.

[eflightray]

One of my old photos from way back in '56 or '57, (I started work at 15 in '58), when even a school, was interested in model building.

Like already said, there were quite a few shops that sold modeling equipment back then, even a hardware shop near my school.

Other than fishing, there were few hobbies to get involved in back then. New and amazing aircraft (usually military), were constant being developed and reported on, so youngsters back then were constantly aware of aircraft, (remember the Eagle comic and it's centre page on new technology).

What is currently being paid out on mobile/smartphones by youngsters is probably way beyond what is required to take up modelling. I'm sure the money is out there to get involved, but youngsters just don't seem interested unless it's something trendy, like 'drones'.

Ray.

Addition: Note my C/L flying wing, the 'crescent wing' was all the talk at the time.

Edited By eflightray on 28/11/2019 19:25:59

[Don Fry]

Reality check, back then, my radio kit cost more than my car. The car was good enough to work. The radio kit was more problematic.

[Erfolg]

I am not suggesting that the cost of modeling items prevents the young getting involved or having an interest in our hobby.

My suggestion is that compered with say 5-10 years ago, models have become significantly more expensive.

I have a few examples the first is this model

It is a Lanier Giles it cost about £40, the date is iffy, in that I went to the USA and bought it there when the UK economy tanked, with Northern Rock etc. Is that more than 10 years.

This model cost £20 delivered to the door from BRC

I remember when GWS kits were as cheap as chips, never see them now. Pilot, Thunder Tiger and so on all seemed good on price.

When I see a lump of foam for +£200 I think it must be very big. Yet they often turn out to be medium, say 40-50" span.

 

Edited By Erfolg on 28/11/2019 20:29:02

[Don Fry]

Erf, when Leeman Brothers, and Northern Rock met their, self made, maker, I bought a Flair 1/4 scale DR1 kit, with its wheels , and guns, £100 quid delivered. Back then the world was going to hell. Lots of people had no money.

And that German experimental fighter, is a very complicated thing to design and make. It's got to be worth money. I wouldn't fancy building one. Balancing it fills me with anxiety spasms.

Your pound has lost value.. The nice ladies making your models are paid a little more. It all adds up. Far eastern stuff costs more.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Erfolg]

Don,I think you are saying that models are now relatively more expensive.

The world economy is not great now either. I understand that the German economy is essentially, in recession, the French economy has been struggling for some time and that is just close to home. Further away the Chinese have various issues now, economically and socially. And then there is us.

As for the Dornier, balancing is not an issue, nor is flying it. The one surprise is that the glue used by the manufacturers to stick their bits, has turned to dust (now it is a had). The other issue is that the EPO was used in parts of the wing as a structural member. This eventually failed, loosening a wing half. It is a granular structure similar in some respects to polystyrene, it is along the grain/bead structure where the failure occurs Perhaps more surprisingly, over a number of years the foam has essentially seasoned, that is the stresses relaxed, the model in some places subtly changing shape, in others, quite obviously.