Brian Taylor P-51

[Danny Fenton]

As my Apache is awaiting a test-flight my eye wandered around the workshop, and they fell on my one remaining unfinished project.

A Brian Taylor P-51 Mustang, that I started in 2008.

The model was sidelined when a mass build of a Hurricane took my focus.

The Mustang in question only really needs a wing. The tail surfaces are covered and even glassed. Though they are not up to my usual standard re weight being a little heavy. They were the very first forays into glassing, so allowances must be made. In face the tail-plane resin wouldn't set and had to be removed with acetone. Possibly leaving some residue in the wood. My wood selection these days is also a little more strict.

But the model deserves finishing.

So with that in mind I have found the ribs, retracts, and spinner and plan to knock a wing together. It will be as per plan except I will use RDS for the ailerons.

The fuselage build was documented on RCSB for those that are really keen.

Cheers

Danny

[Eric Robson]

Hi Danny, I have had notification today that my Brian Taylor Tempest plan and parts have been dispatched from Sarik. I hope it does not take 12 years to complete it as I will be 96, looking forward to following your Mustang build.I also have a Ju 88 to build, if the weather stays like this I should make good progress.

Cheers Eric.

[Danny Fenton]

Indeed I look forward to following your antics too

I have been looking at the retracts and they are not as per plan, but should still work okay, with a slight modification.

I was sure somebody on here was building a BT Mustang and struggling with retracts, ConcordeSpeedbird perhaps?

Can you remind me your issue if you are looking in?

Cheers

Danny

[Eric Robson]

Hi Danny, this is a B.T. Mustang my son was building just before he passed away. it has Unitract u/c and they worked ok , he wanted all his models sold and the money to go to his 5 children. At the time I was into building 0 gauge locomotives so unfortunately I let them go. This year 10yr. after he died I have managed to get a B.T. FW 190 that he built back , it has never been flown, it has a large AXI motor and Unitract u/c. I don't know if I will ever fly it , only time will tell.

[Nick Somerville]

"So with that in mind I have found the ribs, retracts, and spinner and plan to knock a wing together."

Have to say Danny, that made me gasp. I know that with repetition and experience it will get easier but having just completed and glassed the wings for my BT P47 and how much work has been involved the term, "knock a wing together", for a BT Warbird seems more appropriate for a small sports build wing.

I had to Google the RDS system and found your explanatory Youtube vid. Most interesting and given the struggles I faced with the BT scale P47 aileron hinges that I ultimately ripped out in favour of ever faithful Robart pin hinges I wish I had seen this earlier.

Look forward to watching your progress with the Mustang

[Danny Fenton]

Not sure what to say Eric, that is such a moving story. I am glad that you have got the FW though, not sure I would fly it either. It looks like he was doing a fine job on the Mustang.

Nick, sorry I should not be so flippant with my words, building any of Brian's designs is no mean feat. And your achievement is no small accomplishment. But as i think I said before deviate from Brian's plan at your peril. I think you had Brian Woods build as an example?

I am really impressed with Brian's take on what I call a "sliding fulcrum", I have done a video on that as well he uses this for the Mustang ailerons. I have learned my lesson with regards bell-cranks, no matter how good they are put together slop works its way in. On the Bryant Chipmunk I built for a previous masterclass, the slop crept in before it had even flown. With the new light weight and very powerful servos that we have available putting a servo one each surface has many more benefits than disadvantages. This is one area that I feel you can deviate and improve on Brian's design.

RDS is a great solution but will only work if the hinge-line falls within the surface you want to move. Fine for the ailerons of the Mustang, but no so for the flaps, they will be hidden but internal.

All I can suggest if you want to learn all this stuff is dive on to RCSB and read, read, read. The best modellers on the planet share their knowledge on there. And it's free to read.

I am quite looking forward to this wing now, a few people to keep me on the straight and narrow is always good fun.

**** Minor hiccup, when I started checking through the parts, loads were missing, like more than half!

Anyway a further rummage and another box of bits surfaced, not sure how they got separated, but once an inventory was done a sigh of relief I had most of the bits.

Bob Holman cut my wood, and the cowl came from Brian and the canopy from Traplet, but it was an early one, nice and thick, possible one of Brian's stock too?

Anyway

Cheers

Danny

[Martin Fane]

Looking forward to this one

[Danny Fenton]

Martin, haven't you got one of these just about finished? I should be following you

Cheers

Danny

[Nick Somerville]

So went back to look for the sliding fulcrum video and after watching that saw your video on creating litho blisters. Looked fun and wondering whether it would work on very small blisters popped out to the workshop to see if I could make some for the aileron hinge shrouds. Worked a treat and very quick to do. They are perhaps a little low in profile for true scale but I wont quibble about a millimetre or two 😀. Brian Woods made a mould and plastic formed his but I think that would take a lot longer. Thanks Danny.

[Martin Fane]

Hi Danny

Yes, not as far progressed as you. Ready to start

[Danny Fenton]

Cool, I am really looking forward to this now

Glad you liked the blister stuff Nick, I am all for doing things the easy way, I am inherently lazy I guess

Some like to force litho, I like to tease it.

So Martin are we ready to start the wing then? I spent several hours last night re-acquainting myself with the plan, it is older than the Hurricane and there are some bits that are a bit vague, especially around the wheel doors, so we may have to combine our thoughts on some bits, if you are game?

I think I have Brian's sequence squared away, not that i will do it quite that way I have an aversion to lifting wings from boards until sheeted, but let's see how we get on.

I was convinced to go RDS for the ailerons, but i wonder if there is room for a sliding fulcrum...... ailerons from block balsa goes against my thinking, and i am sure Brian avoided solid block on his later plans.....

This model could be so much lighter........

Anyway great to have you all onboard remember no such thing as a stupid question....

Cheers

Danny

[Eric Robson]

Posted by Danny Fenton on 26/08/2020 17:04:39:

Cool, I am really looking forward to this now

Glad you liked the blister stuff Nick, I am all for doing things the easy way, I am inherently lazy I guess

Some like to force litho, I like to tease it.

So Martin are we ready to start the wing then? I spent several hours last night re-acquainting myself with the plan, it is older than the Hurricane and there are some bits that are a bit vague, especially around the wheel doors, so we may have to combine our thoughts on some bits, if you are game?

I think I have Brian's sequence squared away, not that i will do it quite that way I have an aversion to lifting wings from boards until sheeted, but let's see how we get on.

I was convinced to go RDS for the ailerons, but i wonder if there is room for a sliding fulcrum...... ailerons from block balsa goes against my thinking, and i am sure Brian avoided solid block on his later plans.....

This model could be so much lighter........

Anyway great to have you all onboard remember no such thing as a stupid question....

Cheers

Danny

My boss used to say if there was a difficult job give it to a lazy man, he'll find the easy way round it. Guess who got the difficult jobs. The Tempest pack arrived from Sarik today, rudder and elevators solid balsa, will soon change that. Don't know weather to start the Tempest or a Ju88 after I finish the Spitfire I am building.

Cheers Eric. following with great interest

[Danny Fenton]

Hi Eric yep that would be me too.

Finally managed to make a start on the wing proper this evening. Annoyingly ribs 3 and 4 are a fair bit undersized all round, a scaling issue I think. Anyway didn't notice until aligning the trailing edge spar. So will work round it. Will cut new ribs for the starboard wing.

Lesson there, check everything over the plan!

Getting sloppy with age

Other than that everything went to plan. All the strip-wood so far has been cannibalised from the Fury scrap box, using a SLEC stripper.

I made a little sanding tool to ensure the ribs were to the plan before adding the false leading and trailing edges.

Lego is great isn't it?

So after a couple of hours, I have the basic wing shape done. It gets trickier from here, but quite pleased with progress.

Everything you see is glued

Cheers

Danny

Edited By Danny Fenton on 30/08/2020 00:02:15

[Ton van Munsteren]

And another great project to follow, keep up the good work.

Cheers,Ton

[Danny Fenton]

Thanks Ton, always lovely to know you are keeping an eye on my antics.

A bit more on the wing today.

Basically I cut a length of 1/16 slightly more than half the distance between ribs. This is fitted tightly against the first rib and glued. The 1/16 is placed in the remaining area hard against the other rib. A line is drawn where they overlap and the wood cut slightly on the plus side of the line. This piece can then be forced into the gap.

The result is a tight fitting spar web. Granted it is made of two pieces, but the join down the middle is a small price to pay for the fabulous fit against the ribs which is imperative for webs to do their stuff.

Once the webs were done the leading edge skin from rib 6 outboard was added, as per Brian's instructions.

I would normally sheet almost all the upper surface, but I am going to follow my own mantra, deviate from Brian's plans at you peril.

Titebond is used along the ribs and leading edge. Alas I have to wait for it to dry!!!

Cheers

Danny

[Danny Fenton]

Wing lifted, sanded, leading edge shape is a PITA, not enough reference points!!

Anyway, long sanding block got all the underside flush, lower leading edge sheeting added ala Dave Platt, in the air, in your hands. Don't apply any force as you could twist the wing.

Cheers

Danny

[Danny Fenton]

Okay one wing as far as I can take it.

Onto the starboard wing.

First of all lessons learned from the port wing:

1. Check ribs against plan rib outlines

2. Draw full rib outlines, especially nose underside curvature.

3. Remove all ply tabs before laminating to ribs.

So the first step showed me that ALL the ribs were 2 or 3 mm out compared to the rib outlines. Also the spar notches were 2 - 3mm out as well.  However taking rib 1 as an example, when I laid the rib on the wing plan, the length and spar notch positions were correct. This makes me think that the plan is distorted. The laser cut ribs match the plan outline that I am building from so that's good. But effectively the plan is useless should I need to make another set of ribs. 

I drew the full rib outlines as the missing outline around the building/jigging tabs caught me out on the first wing.

I will cut and sand the ply doublers to final size before laminating to the balsa base of the rib. Job for themorning as machinery for that is in the outside workshop.

So all I could do tonight was lay the plan out, pin the spar and go to bed.

Cheers

Danny

Edited By Danny Fenton on 30/08/2020 23:33:10

Edited By Danny Fenton on 30/08/2020 23:33:51

[Eric Robson]

Hi Danny, I like the use of an internal gauge to determine the rib spacing, you have set the alarm bells ringing over the rib size variations, I have the Tempest parts from Sarik to start on so I will have to check it all out before gluing anything together. It will be a little time before starting the Tempest as I have started a Warbirds Replica Ju 88 this is classed as a quick build with foam veneered wings tail feathers and fuselage capping so no rib problems here.

Cheers Eric.

[Danny Fenton]

Managed a bit with the starboard wing, went much better than the port, mainly because I had removed the ply from the doublers before they were part of the wing!

Finished this evenings session with the spar webbing, a little more bits and pieces and then I can sheet the upper and lower leading edges.

Cheers

Danny

[Danny Fenton]

Not a good evening in the workshop at all.

I finished the starboard wing to the same point as the port and then joined them. There is very little to align to as against my better judgement the wing was lifted from the board, and the lower jig tabs removed to allow the underside to be sheeted. Of course with nothing to keep the wing straight it was bound to twist. And mine has.

So I have split the wings apart again. It's nigh on impossible to progress as I do not have accurate rib drawings as the plan is rubbish as printed. I have also ripped the lower sheeting from one panel, assuming that had locked in the twist. That may not be the culprit.

So all I can do Is draw a reference line through the tip and root ribs, measure to a datum, and try and make the wings at least with the same washout on each side. I can then make tabs for when the wing is inverted and the lower sheeting going on.

As you know with a "D" box section when the last section goes on you pretty well lock the shape into the wing. This is achieved, following this plans method, with the wing lifted and with no references, bonkers.

I am a massive Brian Taylor fan as you will all know. But to recover this situation I am going to have to do things my way.

I have trusted the cut dihedral braces, and rib parts which have been inaccurate. There is a small drawing showing the angle rib 1 needs to be at, this is also wrong and I blinded trusted it.

Not sure I can sort this pigs ear out.

Cheers

Danny

[Eric Robson]

That is bad news Danny, I hope you do not put it away for another decade, I am sure you will sort it out.

Cheers Eric.

[Bob Cotsford]

Take a day or two to let your subconscious work on it. I often find that a solution comes to mind as long as I'm not fretting on the problem. As for printed plans, I built a Don Stothers designed Bu133, it was only when assembling the completed structure that I discovered that the wing drawings gave different amounts of sweepback on each of the four panels. One day I'll strip the covering, 'adjust' the sweep and then maybe it will bunt without screwing out.

Sheet a floating wing panel? Yea, right. My way is to put the panel inverted on the board, pack the TE up to give the right washout with the upper spar line flat on the board then use long weights to hold it steady while you add the bottom LE sheet. Mark the packing and reuse it for the other panel to get them both the same.

[Danny Fenton]

Thanks chaps, it did indeed need to sleep on it.

Similar idea to you Bob.

I drew on my plan (granted it may not be (accurate but hopefully okay for this)

I drew a line vertically from the base of the jig tabs, to clear the top of the rib, plus any sheeting.

In this case 65mm. I made 1/4square posts and ensured they were identical in length. These were attached with the wing upright and true. I then did similar posts at mid and tip ribs. These too were fitted with the wing flat on the board the right way up.

Then when the wing is flipped and the underside uppermost, the four posts SHOULD!!! give you a true surface to pin down. It lay perfectly flat. I pinned the shortened posts to allow clearance, and sheeted the leading edge.

I have done this before on a BT Hurricane I built several years ago, fingers crossed.

Going to remove the lower sheeting from the other panel while this dries.

Cheers

Danny

[alan p]

As Bob has said sleep on the problem for a while, then apply the solution you will undoubtably come up with.

Unfortunately when the laser cut parts are traced from a original plan a lot depends on the accuracy and patience of the person tracing plus the printed plan. I built a Brian Taylor Gladiator with a cut parts set there was a large amount of ********* due to short ribs and formers. Obviously cut on the line not outside it (gentle taper short rib)

[Danny Fenton]

Hi Alan, the problem is the cut parts don't match the plan at all. I can only guess the plan slipped while printing? It is as though the parts are cut from a different plan entirely. Martin Fane is finding the same on his parts We have made a new rib 4 by guessing the shape from the adjacent ribs, and a bit of lofting

Cheers

Danny