Tim Eastgate Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 Hi, I am in the process of building a Dancing Wings Tiger Moth and the instructions are somewhat brief (not to mention parts are mislabelled) - leaving you with what amounts to a big jigsaw. I’ve managed to work out most things but have got a bit stuck on the brackets that are fixed in the wings to take the struts. I’m hoping someone on here might have some experience and can point me in the right direction - the parts are different and I’m not sure which goes where (see pictures). thanks in advance. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyGnome Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 (edited) I laid the brackets over the illustrations on the plan (like your first pic) to determine which was which, then wrote the part number on each. Elsewhere on the plan (like your second pic) it shows which one goes where. Quite a few frustrating bits in that build! End result can look really good... I'll try and find the thread, but there are deffo some articles in the archive - I think by Tim Hooper... Try this one: That'll possibly send you down a rabbit warren of other threads ? Edited February 13, 2022 by GrumpyGnome 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Watkins Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 Just help with viewing 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Eastgate Posted February 13, 2022 Author Share Posted February 13, 2022 2 hours ago, GrumpyGnome said: I laid the brackets over the illustrations on the plan (like your first pic) to determine which was which, then wrote the part number on each. Elsewhere on the plan (like your second pic) it shows which one goes where. Quite a few frustrating bits in that build! End result can look really good... I'll try and find the thread, but there are deffo some articles in the archive - I think by Tim Hooper... Try this one: That'll possibly send you down a rabbit warren of other threads ? Thanks for the suggestion. I tried to find a build blog but nothing came up on my search - not sure why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarlyBird Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 14 minutes ago, Tim Eastgate said: Thanks for the suggestion. I tried to find a build blog but nothing came up on my search - not sure why. Build Link 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Eastgate Posted February 13, 2022 Author Share Posted February 13, 2022 Thanks - I don’t know what I’m doing wrong , but nothing comes up when I enter the search criteria . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarlyBird Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 tiger moth ? All the ones on here were for DB. Apart from a couple, Tim Hooper was not at all complimentary 'simply awful' I read. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Eastgate Posted February 13, 2022 Author Share Posted February 13, 2022 The kit itself is ok, ie it fits together quite nicely but the instructions are a joke - almost nonexistent and the karts are mislabelled, eg F4 is actually G11 etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarlyBird Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 Tim, I have read through the above link which includes Tim Hooper's build. It reminded me that the C of G is and issue and will require something like 8 oz of lead added. This can be addressed by moving F1 forward and dispensing with the motor box. Just and idea. I bought VQ models ARTF version oddly the C of G was in the wrong place and would need 24 oz of lead I did exactly as Tim did and calculated the C of G needed moving back 40 mm. It strikes me there is a lot of copying going on because the same mistakes are turning up. I have thought of cutting a hole in F1 and moving the battery forward, 4S 4000mah, but it flies as it is. So adding the lead is not a killer issue. 9 minutes ago, Tim Eastgate said: The kit itself is ok, ie it fits together quite nicely but the instructions are a joke - almost nonexistent and the karts are mislabelled, eg F4 is actually G11 etc. I have built 3 DW models and all had the issues you point out. I did the same as you are doing looking for help and reading reviews. I found reviews that were four years old saying exactly what you are saying and that was four years ago. The good news is, after vowing to never build another DW kit, that I found this forum. There was a comment about DW 'I don't believe they build or fly their kits' which struck a cord with me. Here I found designers who build and fly their models which inspires confidence. My first was Ballerina and more Peter Miller designs have followed. I am now a devoted and committed builder, as you may have noticed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Eastgate Posted February 13, 2022 Author Share Posted February 13, 2022 I’ve built a couple of Peter Miller kits - the Ohmen and the Grumpy Tiger Cub - which I converted to electric. I hadn’t read the bad reviews of the DW models until after I’d bought the kit, but you live and learn and I shan’t by another. Hey Ho such is life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Walby Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 2 hours ago, EarlyBird said: I bought VQ models ARTF version oddly the C of G was in the wrong place and would need 24 oz of lead I did exactly as Tim did and calculated the C of G needed moving back 40 mm. It strikes me there is a lot of copying going on because the same mistakes are turning up. Hi Earlybird, Apologies for heading off topic a bit Tim! This is out of the VQ TM manual (might have the wrong size TM, as this is the 1400mm wingspan version!), but are you saying you moved the C of G back 40mm to 152mm...near the TE of the upper wing? Or perhaps VQ have amended their manual? 24oz (680g) seems a fair bit, but then again they recommend a FS 70 up front which can weigh 580g and its up the pointy end, so would be interested what you AUW came to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Watkins Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 Online photos show the brackets bolted into slots in the spars to support wires too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarlyBird Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 47 minutes ago, Chris Walby said: are you saying you moved the C of G back 40mm to 152mm...near the TE of the upper wing? Yes and that is what Tim Hooper did in his build calculation, I had not seen Tim Hooper's build but research led me to the same calculation. Interestingly when I did the calculation the recommended 112 mm is the value before including for the swept back wings. Too much of a coincidence for me. AUW worked out at 7 1/2 pounds with 4S 4000 3548 motor and 60 amp ESC and of course 12 oz of lead. This is relevant to this topic as essentially it is the same model apart from a few build differences like sheeted LE. I did a lot of reading up on the C of G because I did not believe the 24 oz needed. The full size has the C of G on the front seat which means any size pupil will not affect the balance. After flying I believe it is nose heavy and the C of G could be moved back to make the elevator more responsive, but that's just my opinion, 152mm is a safe starting point. Also the recommended 750 watt motor lacks power even on 4S (3S is recommended). Steve 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff S Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 My DB 58" ws Tiger Moth, which is slightly larger I think, has the CoG about where Tim set his (in my case just ahead of the front pilot's seat, about where the compass sits). I haven't flown it for some time and I can't off-hand remember the figures but I also use a 4AH 4S LiPo which gives me around 10 minutes of moderately aerobatic flight. I would certainly go for a 4S set up driving (say) a 12 x 6 prop at 8 or 9000 rpm. I was given mine almost built by the adult son of a friend who'd never built an aeroplane before and whilst what he'd done was done well a lot of it was incorrect so a lot of work needed to make it airworthy. I managed to avoid any ballast by siting the battery under the motor as far forward as possible. Personally, I would also look at a different and quicker way of attaching the inter-plane struts. The DB method is very quick and avoids the need to fiddle with small nuts and bolts every time the model is assembled. It's one of the reasons biplanes can end up as 'hangar queens'. Perhaps it's not so easy given the wing attachment method, I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Eastgate Posted February 13, 2022 Author Share Posted February 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Denis Watkins said: Online photos show the brackets bolted into slots in the spars to support wires too. Thanks for the image, it was kind of you to post it. The bit I'm struggling with is not locating the slots the brackets fit into. But which bracket goes in which slot - the brackets aren't all uniform (some are longer than others) so knowing which goes where would save a fair bit if time. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarlyBird Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 The longer ones go in the back because wing shape makes the back a longer distance. I think. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Eastgate Posted February 13, 2022 Author Share Posted February 13, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, EarlyBird said: The longer ones go in the back because wing shape makes the back a longer distance. I think. I haven't had a chance to do any work on the model today - I will report back when I do. Thanks for all the suggestions. Much appreciated. Edited February 13, 2022 by Tim Eastgate 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarlyBird Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 Yes It shows T2 with the shorter brackets at the front (bottom left above) and T3 at the back. If they are to size on the instructions above you can lay then over otherwise just measure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Eastgate Posted February 13, 2022 Author Share Posted February 13, 2022 Sadly the pictures/instructions are not 1:1 scale - that would be too easy for DW's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarlyBird Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 1 minute ago, Tim Eastgate said: Sadly the pictures/instructions are not 1:1 scale - that would be too easy for DW's. Have you got eight brackets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Eastgate Posted February 13, 2022 Author Share Posted February 13, 2022 Have you got eight brackets?….. I have - 2 obviously longer than the others and the rest more or less the same size (allowing for manufacturing tolerances). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarlyBird Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 I would think that the two longer ones go at the bottom back one on each wing obviously. I would be cautious and not fix them until I could do a test assembly which means the fuselage and wings are complete. Just my way of working I know. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Watkins Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Tim Eastgate said: Thanks for the image, it was kind of you to post it. The bit I'm struggling with is not locating the slots the brackets fit into. But which bracket goes in which slot - the brackets aren't all uniform (some are longer than others) so knowing which goes where would save a fair bit if time. Tim Tim, it looks to me that the longer brackets are on the lower wing, angled forward and The shorter brackets hung on the upper wing, facing to the rear. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatMc Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 37 minutes ago, Tim Eastgate said: Have you got eight brackets?….. I have - 2 obviously longer than the others and the rest more or less the same size (allowing for manufacturing tolerances). I think that because of the airfoil contour the distance between the rear strut attachment points is greater than the front, therefore if 4 of the shorter brackets are used on the underside of the top wing then the other 2 short ones should be on the front upper surface of the lower wing & the longer ones on the rear positions. There may also be a difference in the incidence between upper & lower wings - which was/is not uncommon on full size biplanes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Hooper Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 Thanks for all the references to my own build of the Tiger! I have to stress that mine was an earlier incarnation of the kit. I think several changes have been made since then! Looks like the undercarriage is stall way too large though. I really enjoyed flying mine, and was really dismayed when it was destroyed in a mid-air....... Tim 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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