'Club' Aircraft

[GrumpyGnome]

I suppose I could research this on the BMFA site, but hopefully fellow forumites will answer in plainer English!

 

We have, or will soon have, 3 'club' aircraft:

 

1. An electric trainer (Apprentice)
2. An electric intermediate plane (AcroWot)
3. A camera equipped multi-rotor above 250g

 

These are to be used as follows:

 

• Apprentice will be used for 'taster' flights for potentially non-BMFA members, and for training BMFA members instructed by a select group of club members.
• Acrowot will be 'loaned' to club members - all BMFA members.
• The multi-rotor will be used for 'taster' flights, and locating aircraft that are lost in the crop fields that surround us.

 

Does your club offer/operate anything similar? How do you deal with Operator ID for items 1. and 3. above?

 

TIA, GG.

 

 

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

Many clubs offer taster flights with club aircraft.

The issue of Operator ID's is very straightforward. The aircraft must have a valid Operator ID on it of an individual or organisation that is happy to accept the responsibilities of being the Operator which are.

 

• Ensure the remote pilot is in possession of the relevant remote pilot competence requirements**
• Ensure that the model aircraft is sufficiently maintained, and that any repairs carried out to it are satisfactorily made, such that it is in a safe condition to be flown;
• Ensure that the remote pilot is aware of the limitations and conditions of the BMFA Article 16 authorisation; (assuming Article 16 flights)
• Ensure that the remote pilot is aware of the rules and procedures of the BMFA;
• Ensure that any necessary additional permissions or authorisations are obtained for any specific flight;
• Ensure the remote pilot is aware of any relevant airspace limitations;
  
  **The person having a trial flight is not the remote pilot, the remote pilot is either the person who is using the master transmitter if using a buddy system, or the person closely supervising if not using a buddy system.
  
  None of the above presents any sort of issue in a club environment.

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

Further to the above, this is what the BMFA Article 16 authorisation says.

 

4.6 Operations of Model Aircraft by non-members under instruction
(1) For the purposes of conducting ‘trial flights’ by non-members, the nonmember may operate the controls of the model aircraft whilst under the direct instruction and supervision of a member. In such an instance, the remote pilot receiving instruction does not need to comply with the competence requirements of set out in section 3.12.

(2) The registration requirements and registration display requirements (as set out in section 3.5) still apply.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Andy Symons - BMFA

[GrumpyGnome]

Cheers Andy

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

Loads in our club, a Bixler, and two of the Multoplex ones ( one still in it's box, a Calmato, two of those piper cub 'things' and a pattern model ( F3A cost 800€ )

each with two radios, mode 1 or 2  switchable, the F3a on my radios,,

[GrumpyGnome]

Do you have similar requirements for a flyers 'license' number on each? Whose?

 

Based on Andy's reply above, I suspect my Op ID will end up on a couple......

[David Ashby - Moderator]

We have a Wot Trainer, and an older Ripmax balsa trainer in reserve. Both electric. The Wot has flown most weekends through spring and summer. 
 

The Op-Id number is something we’d omitted so that’s a timely post GG. 
 

 

 

 

[Andy Stephenson]

For club trainers that are operated by multiple instructors, how should the OP ID be handled. Can the model have all the IDs of the various operators attached at the same time or does having more than one invalidate them.

As far as I know, the answer to this question has always evaded.

[Nick Cripps]

We have a few club trainers which are operated and maintained by the instructors to which they are allocated. Each instructor puts his own Op ID in "their" model and is responsible for ensuring that the model is in an airworthy condition.

 

If your trainers are to be operated by more than one instructor, I would suggest putting your Op ID on a laminated card and attaching it to the model by velcro. Every instructor would bring their own card and put it in the model when they fly it.

[Andy Stephenson]

That sounds like a good compromise but I would still like to know if having more than one OP ID is specifically disallowed.

[steve too]

8 hours ago, GrumpyGnome said:

We have, or will soon have, 3 'club' aircraft:

 

...

 

How do you deal with Operator ID 

 

Interesting question. EASA's FAQ says that the operator is the owner. Of course, the UK isn't in EASA anymore and the (retained and messed about with) UK legislation has a circular definition of UAS operator so we are left with the person who does the operator stuff defined in 2019/947.

 

2 hours ago, Nick Cripps said:

Every instructor would bring their own card and put it in the model when they fly it.

 

Why is the instructor the operator?

Edited November 9, 2023 by steve too

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

3 hours ago, Andy Stephenson said:

For club trainers that are operated by multiple instructors, how should the OP ID be handled. Can the model have all the IDs of the various operators attached at the same time or does having more than one invalidate them.

As far as I know, the answer to this question has always evaded.

Just one at a time. 

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

3 hours ago, Nick Cripps said:

If your trainers are to be operated by more than one instructor, I would suggest putting your Op ID on a laminated card and attaching it to the model by velcro. Every instructor would bring their own card and put it in the model when they fly it.

No reason why you cannot do that. As long as the aircraft has a valid Operator ID displayed and that Operator is happy to accept teh responsibilities as listed in my post earlier that is perfectly ok.

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

4 hours ago, GrumpyGnome said:

Do you have similar requirements for a flyers 'license' number on each? Whose?

 

Do you mean Flyer ID? If so, that doesn't go on the aircraft. However the remote pilot, who is the person on the master TX, or who is giving close supervision of the trial flight if a buddy lead isn't being used, must meet the competency requirements as laid down in the Article 16 authorisation which are....

• Have a valid BMFA Registration Competency Certificate (RCC)**, or
• Passing the CAA online DMARES test and having a ‘Flyer ID’, or
• Have a BMFA Achievement Certificate that was obtained before 31/12/2020 and also have declared to the BMFA that they have read and understood the conditions and restrictions that apply when operating within our Article 16 authorisation. (N.B. Certificates gained after 31/12/2020 cannot be used) 

 

[GrumpyGnome]

I was wondering how they do it in France.... hence trying to avoid the terms Op Id and Flyer ID... 🙂

[Nick Cripps]

2 hours ago, steve too said:

Why is the instructor the operator?

 

Why not? This is just a suggestion as to how it could work. I think there still needs to be a named individual if the club was to register as an operator so who would that be? The chairman? Secretary? Training co-ordinator? It seems simpler to me for the instructor to take on the role and responsibility of the operator during the time he is using the model for training.

[GrumpyGnome]

My nervousness 1with a club being the Op ID would be one of responsibility - presumably it would be the club's officers in the event of any issues. 'Maintenance by committee' seems doomed to failure!

 

Please keep thoughts and comments coming. I'll summarise th=e options for our club to decide, in a few days (I also have some info from of-forum that I will put in the mix at that time).

[steve too]

8 hours ago, Nick Cripps said:

Why not?

 

Because operator it is a role with legally defined responsibilities (see 2019/947 etc) and for a club owned aircraft, one of 

 

8 hours ago, Nick Cripps said:

The chairman? Secretary? Training co-ordinator?

 

would be a better fit.

[MattyB]

16 hours ago, GrumpyGnome said:

Do you have similar requirements for a flyers 'license' number on each? Whose?

 

Based on Andy's reply above, I suspect my Op ID will end up on a couple......

 

...My nervousness with a club being the Op ID would be one of responsibility - presumably it would be the club's officers in the event of any issues. 'Maintenance by committee' seems doomed to failure!

 

I would personally never put my Op. ID onto a club model that could be flown without me being present. Remember, by adding your ID you are formally accepting legal responsibility in line with Andy Symon's post above, even if you aren't present to check the model over or supervise the remote pilot(s). I can't see any of these responsibilities that I would be ok to put my hand up for unless I was present at the time of the flight...

 

• Ensure the remote pilot is in possession of the relevant remote pilot competence requirements
• Ensure that the model aircraft is sufficiently maintained, and that any repairs carried out to it are satisfactorily made, such that it is in a safe condition to be flown;
• Ensure that the remote pilot is aware of the limitations and conditions of the BMFA Article 16 authorisation; (assuming Article 16 flights)
• Ensure that the remote pilot is aware of the rules and procedures of the BMFA;
• Ensure that any necessary additional permissions or authorisations are obtained for any specific flight;
• Ensure the remote pilot is aware of any relevant airspace limitations.

 

Far better to utilise something akin to the old 35MHz "peg on" system - the model has a small transparent panel made out of a bit of old display wallet or similar glued to the side, into which bits of paper can be placed with the relevant Op. ID for that day, then the holder gets taped shut. Then do all the normal pre-flight checks as if it was your own model, and fly. Finally the Op. ID is removed by the pilot at the end of the session and put in his flight box so it can't be used without their presence. Problem solved.

Edited November 10, 2023 by MattyB

[Nick Cripps]

Exactly. Which is why I said that the instructor should put his own Op ID in the model when he is instructing.

[Simon Burch 1]

8 minutes ago, MattyB said:

 

I would personally never put my Op. ID onto a club model that could be flown without me being present. Remember, by adding your ID you are formally accepting legal responsibility for the flight in question, even if you aren't present to check the model over or supervise the remote pilot(s).

 

Far better to utilise something akin to the old 35MHz "peg on" system - the model has a small transparent panel made out of a bit of old display wallet or similar glued to the side, into which bits of paper can be placed with the relevant Op. ID for that day, then the holder gets taped shut. Then do all the normal pre-flight checks as if it was your own model, and fly. Finally the Op. ID is removed by the pilot at the end of the session and put in his flight box so it can't be used without their presence. Problem solved.

This is an interesting point.  As far as I know, there is no legal requirement for the Op ID holder to be present when the model is being flown.  We have a number of junior members (ie under-18s) who can't hold Op IDs.  Normally, their Op ID are held by parents who, in some cases, have almost no knowledge about model flying, and they may well be absent during a flying session.  Of course, as a club, we do our best to help them, and we encourage Op ID holders to sit alongside their 'charge' while they take the BMFA RCC. 

 

For our club trainers, we simply use a printed Op ID stuck on with transparent film.  When necessary, this is removed and replaced by another.  It's worked well so far.

[MattyB]

10 minutes ago, Simon Burch 1 said:

This is an interesting point.  As far as I know, there is no legal requirement for the Op ID holder to be present when the model is being flown.

 

You are quite right, there isn't. My only point is that I personally would not put my Op ID on an aircraft that was to be flown regularly by others when I am not present. Others may be fine with it, and it's certainly not breaking the rules, but for me the legal risks associated are too high for me to accept my number going on a club trainer that could be flown by anyone in the club. YMMV.

 

PS - Organisations (e.g. a club in this case) can register as an Operator too if you prefer that route, but it looks like the the ultimate responsibility to ensure operator requirements are met does still sit with an individual...

Who can register your organisation

The person who completes the registration must be authorised to be the accountable manager for drones and model aircraft in the organisation.

The accountable manager will be responsible for making sure that the organisation flies and uses drones and model aircraft safely and legally.

You can change the accountable manager at any time.

 

Before you start

You'll need:

• the accountable manager’s home address and contact details
• the organisation’s registered number, for example its registered company number or charity number

Edited November 10, 2023 by MattyB

[steve too]

42 minutes ago, MattyB said:

Organisations (e.g. a club in this case) can register as an Operator

 

The club being the operator would fit with both EASA's FAQ and this statement on the CAA's website -

 

Quote

Operator ID

The operator is the person responsible for managing a drone or model aircraft. This means they’re responsible for things like maintaining it and making sure that anyone who flies it has a flyer ID.

They’re usually the person or organisation that owns the drone or model aircraft, but not always. 

 

1 hour ago, MattyB said:

Far better to utilise something akin to the old 35MHz "peg on" system - the model has a small transparent panel made out of a bit of old display wallet or similar glued to the side, into which bits of paper can be placed with the relevant Op. ID for that day, then the holder gets taped shut. Then do all the normal pre-flight checks as if it was your own model, and fly. Finally the Op. ID is removed by the pilot at the end of the session and put in his flight box so it can't be used without their presence. 

 

By producing that procedure for how the UAS is to be used, haven't you just made yourself its operator 😄.

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by steve too

[Mike T]

The ideal solution is to pick up your trainers free or second hand.  We've got a couple and, conveniently, they came with an OpID already affixed...

[GrumpyGnome]

Lol.