Law - am I breaking bylaws?

[JayCee]

Thanks Ken I'll have a search

 

JC

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Definately down to local laws. In the case of our club we are allowed to fly in the Country Park, but only at one specific location. If we fly from elsewhere in the park we are breeching a bye-law. Similarly if someone else, who is not a club member, flies anywhere in the park they would be breeching the bye-laws. Only the club has the flying rights and then only in a specific location.

 

Equally I know some local authorities that allow anyone to fly in the parks. So as Ken says you need to check it out JC. The Leisure Services Dept of your local council should be able to advise.

 

BEB

[Tim Mackey]

I have a large park very close to home, but have only ever flown in it twice some years ago.

Personally I think the description "park flyer" is a real bad thing. Maybe if one considers Dartmoor a park, or maybe the huge spaces that pass for parks in the USA etc then fine, but I find your typical public park in the UK is wholly unsuitable fro flying any RC aeroplane, other than perhaps the very very smallest, slowest and lightest things....maybe more suited to indoor. Its a fact, that as soon as you take off, children, dogs, dog walkers, joggers, frisby throwers and all the rest will appear as if by magic to distract and endanger you and themselves. Most so called modern park flyers also get pretty small pretty quick, and one can soon find themselves flying beyond a predefined boundary.

I now NEVER fly anything in a public park, preferring instead to make the 20 minute drive to my proper, purpose built and paid for club strip.

[JayCee]

Hi

 

I did telephone my local council as suggested by Ken, but no surprise no body wanted to take responsibility to talk the thing through..........and just said no on HS grounds!

 

JC

[Steve W-O]

I think if challenged, the suggested procedure is to ask for identification, and ask if they would be kind enough to supply you with a copy, or where to find the code that prevents you from flying.

 

I do fly in a park, quite simply, there is no way for my son to fly solo at a club (thought i hoe that may be different with the new club, so long as there is no-one else he can get in the way of)

 

However, we only fly one at a time, very early in the morning, and we keep a lookout for any dog walkers going across the field, and not round the path on the edge. if anyones starts walking acrosss the field, we land and wait until they have gone. We only fly electric, not EDF or pusher near the wing.

 

We have had no problem, a couple of people have stopped and asked if they mind if they watch, and a few people have said it is nice to see the park being used by different people.

 

The council probably can't just say no on H&S grounds, the risk isn't very great, as shown by the small number of incidents and low insurance, and without doing a risk assessment (sp?) including what precautiuons you take. I doubt if they would give you that refusal in writing.

 

I don't think anyone who flies in a park full of people, which would be most parks during most of the day, could be said to be considerate, or being careful, as there is no room for error.

[Chuck Plains]

Just to revive an old thread.

Having read most of the replies here, I found this Dartmoor National Park Authority. Other Activities. Being new to RC flying I want to just buzz my first plane round a local park, but I can't really find anywhere suitably large and safe around Exeter. So I may also end up a one of the ones that has asked a farmer or two. Nothing to loose I guess.

[Chuck Plains]

Ooo! And I have just found this, Dartmoor Byelaws scroll down to number 18 !!

If authorised, you can fly powered models! Kites and gliders are ok if you don't annoy people or scare livestock. And it seems that if your model weighs more than 5kg you will not get permission anyway.

[John Privett]

The byelaws are probably based on a standard "model" set. There is a very similar rule to your 18 (2) in the byelaws covering the land where our club flies.

As a reminder that rule is;

(2) No person shall release any power-driven model aircraft for flight or control the flight of such an aircraft on or over the access land unless he is authorised to do so by the Authority.

I suspect it's written that way to allow the "the Authority" to determine whether or not they will allow model flying, and if so to whom and under what conditions, and to change their mind about it whenever they want to, all without having to change the byelaws. In our case, model flying is only permitted by those people who have the "consent of the Conservators." The Conservators give that consent to all members of our club, but not to non-members. The Authority at Dartmoor might, or might not, have a similar arrangement with a local club.

[Chuck Plains]

Certainly the Dartmoor authority aren't averse to model fliers. And, although I haven't had a reply from them the Dartmoor Slope Soarers seem like a good bet as I want to get into R/C gliding. Another club, thai I've actually attended is the East Devon RCC on Woodbury Common near Exmouth, which, although it's common land, is managed by some 'Estates' group, whatever that means.

Edited By Chuck Planes on 14/05/2012 20:08:15

[Kris1]

Mat,

 

I fly model gliders on the moor... These are from certain sites according to conditions... As a rule of thumb any rc model is not allowed, however a "blind eye" seems to be given to gliders... So no "motor" driven aircraft. I fly my electric gliders from the slope, just don't use the power... Most of the sites are a fair hike from the car park so are quite a distance from the public...

For more info contact these guys..

http://www.dartmoorsoarers.co.uk/

Stan Yeo is a good start as well, he runs Phoenix Model Products, he is a gent..

http://www.phoenixmp.com/

 

 

 

Edited By Kris1 on 12/05/2015 22:12:43

[Cliff 1959]

Up at Haytor last weekend there were three drones flying, I've got to say I enjoy flying models but these were just bugging me, not only for the noise aspect but aren't they 'power models'? so should they even be there?

[John Privett]

Posted by Cliff 1959 on 02/10/2015 23:35:04:

Up at Haytor last weekend there were three drones flying, I've got to say I enjoy flying models but these were just bugging me, not only for the noise aspect but aren't they 'power models'? so should they even be there?

 

It looks like Haytor is owned by the Dartmoor National Park Authority and governed by the Dartmoor National Park byelaws.

The relevant section would appear to be;

18 Kites and Model Aircraft

(1) No person shall fly a kite or model glider from the access land in such a manner as to give reasonable cause for annoyance to any other person or in such a manner as is likely to startle or disturb stock on the land.

(2) No person shall release any power-driven model aircraft for flight or control the flight of such an aircraft on or over the access land unless he is authorised to do so by the Authority.

(3) For the purpose of this byelaw “model aircraft” means an aircraft which either weighs not more than 5 kilograms without its fuel or is for the time being exempted (as a model aircraft) from provisions of the Air Navigation Order and “power driven” means driven by the combustion of petrol vapour or other combustible vapour or other combustible substances or by one or more electric motors.

 

Specifically the bit I've put in bold and italics. So I guess it depends on whether they are "authorised" by the Authority or not.

[EDIT] And looking back, that's more or less what Chuck Plains said three and a half years ago!

 

Edited By John Privett on 03/10/2015 11:39:33

[Area 51]

With regard to the Teggs Nose park in Macclesfield, Cheshire. I remember this problem arising due to modellers flying from the same or close to footpaths used by hill walkers, on the park trails (v.popular with dog walkers) etc. This resulted in some walkers being flown over as glider approached landing or used the slope lift..

The council took a view on this activity and it was negative for the flyers; it used to be clearly marked no model flying!

The Leek and Moorlands club have areas they fly around East Cheshire and the within the Peak District. However, this is not one of them. Their access to sites is by agreement with landowners and for members only..

I guess it will be down to who your local authority is working with or has expereince of... Always worth a call to check out the councils position.. I'm sure they would rather have some "approved users" looking after the site with a point of contact (say you own club), rather than any Tom, Dick or Harry trying it until there is a problem!.

[Peter Christy]

Its a long time since I was involved in bye-laws, but my understanding is that for them to be effective, they have to be clearly posted at all access points to the site. This may be impractical in large areas, like Dartmoor, where I would expect special rules to apply, but I'm pretty sure that at local parks, any bye-laws affecting their use must be clearly displayed. No display = no bye-law!

Having said that, just because you have the *right* to do something doesn't necessarily make it a sensible thing to do! I used to occasionally fly in public parks 30 or 40 years ago, but wouldn't dream of doing so now unless it was 1) a very small model and 2) an empty park!

I also seem to recall that the Councils are obliged by law to respond to any request for information on relevant bye-laws. Ignorance may be no excuse in common law, but I believe that that principle may not apply to bye-laws, which may not be obvious.

Rather than just ringing up, I would recommend a letter - recorded delivery!

--

Pete

[john featherstone 1]

many years ago had the same problem as far as i know all librarys must have a copy of the local bye laws (by law) when asked at my local library i was told they were wating for them to come back from the printers ?i never did receive a copy to look at, i was asked by the local council for what perpose did i require to see the bye laws on parks, my answer was to see if i could legally use a crossbow or throw a javalin ??i never said anything about model flying whitch is what i wanted to know (keep them quessing ) they were up in arms saying i could not do that on a local park, i was then told by someone on the council that if it says you cannot do it then you cannot eg(a sign saying no golf) if it does not say you cant do it what ever in this case fly a model aircraft then you can take as you CAN do it otherwise there would be a sign saying NO model flying you need the local bye laws to find out weather you can or cannot whatever its a mine field and the local council normally dont have a clue,

[sean smith 1]

Its all down to local by-laws. Even if there are no signs flying etc may still be not allowed an email to the council should get a response and you you get the permission in writing.

You can't just fly anywhere in the UK one guy who was flying an rc heli over farmers land had it shot down. The guy complained to the police but they said as he was flying over the farmers land without permission the farmer had the right to bring the model down as long as he didn't endanger the pilot.

All down to common sense really.

[Dave Hopkin]

Posted by sean smith 1 on 03/10/2015 16:40:53:

Its all down to local by-laws. Even if there are no signs flying etc may still be not allowed an email to the council should get a response and you you get the permission in writing.

You can't just fly anywhere in the UK one guy who was flying an rc heli over farmers land had it shot down. The guy complained to the police but they said as he was flying over the farmers land without permission the farmer had the right to bring the model down as long as he didn't endanger the pilot.

All down to common sense really.

In my experience getting a clear and concise answer from the local authority is a long and drawn out process!

Surely the act of shooting down an aircraft is illegal under article 137 of the ANO "a person must not recklessly act in a manner to endanger an aircraft or any person in that aircraft"

Also do civil airlines get permission to overfly my house? Will the police say its ok if I start taking pot shoots at them......

[Peter Christy]

The police were wrong! Owning land doesn't give you right over the airspace above it. However, there were probably other factors at work (was the farmer related to a police officer, by chance?).

As I said, as far as I am aware, a bye-law isn't valid unless it is publicly displayed. And "by order" doesn't count on publicly owned land. If you want to ban any activity, you have to pass a bye-law. And if you try and introduce a total ban, then you are obliged to provide a "suitable alternative" - which is why most councils impose severe restrictions rather than a ban. At least, that was the situation the last time I got involved with councils and public spaces, some years ago.

But I am not a lawyer, so double check before standing on your rights!!!

--

Pete

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Pete - while it doesn't apply to normal air traffic, there is the lawyers' favourite* condition which applies - aircraft must be at a "reasonable" height.

This would need to be argued in court if someone brought a case against a model flyer - it's fairly obvious that if your house is across the road from an active runway, aircraft will not be far from your chimney pots but I'd imagine that such factors would be involved in gaining planning permission for either the house or runway and therefore unlikely to be deemed trespass. Hopefully, the same would apply to model sites with planning permission or grandfather rights but were you to simply fly your model from public or other land adjoining property, the outcome might be very different!

*Opportunity to make money

[Peter Christy]

I must admit I was thinking more about open fields than houses when I wrote that, Martin! And I agree that operating a model in close proximity to a house would be in breach of CAA rules. But clearly a "reasonable" height for a model is going to be much lower than for a full size aircraft - if only because of the aforementioned CAA regulations!

I seem to recall a similar (but not as dramatic) case, some years back, when a landowner complained about a model flying over his land - something it had to do to reach or leave the runway. Since there were no buildings or property nearby, the landowner lost the case because his ownership of the land didn't include the airspace above it.

Like all these things, a lot will depend on the individual circumstances, and again, I repeat that just because (in theory) you CAN do something, that doesn't necessarily make it a smart move!

I'm sure that (like me!) you remember all the fuss and furore over Croxley Moor. One of the factors that stopped the council banning flying there was the obligation that would have placed upon them to provide a suitable alternative. The bye-laws resulting from our negotiations back then are still in place today - and still clearly displayed at the entrances to the moor, as I believe they still have to be for the bye-law to be valid.

--

Pete

[sean smith 1]

Posted by Dave Hopkin on 03/10/2015 17:01:36:

Posted by sean smith 1 on 03/10/2015 16:40:53:

Its all down to local by-laws. Even if there are no signs flying etc may still be not allowed an email to the council should get a response and you you get the permission in writing.

You can't just fly anywhere in the UK one guy who was flying an rc heli over farmers land had it shot down. The guy complained to the police but they said as he was flying over the farmers land without permission the farmer had the right to bring the model down as long as he didn't endanger the pilot.

All down to common sense really.

In my experience getting a clear and concise answer from the local authority is a long and drawn out process!

Surely the act of shooting down an aircraft is illegal under article 137 of the ANO "a person must not recklessly act in a manner to endanger an aircraft or any person in that aircraft"

Also do civil airlines get permission to overfly my house? Will the police say its ok if I start taking pot shoots at them......

[sean smith 1]

Yes civil airlines do have permission to overfly your house and they are treated in very different ways to us modelers. As for the shoot down i don't know the circumstances but it was the modeler whose heli it was who reported it.

As regards the ANO 137 i think you may find that it refers to full size aircraft even if it doesn't imply it (you can pay to shoot rc planes with shotguns for fun so it must be legal)

The CAA, Council who ever has the authority will interpret the rules to suite their needs at the time and of course it will all be in the name of heath and safety.

[Dave Hopkin]

Posted by sean smith 1 on 03/10/2015 20:41:46:

Yes civil airlines do have permission to overfly your house and they are treated in very different ways to us modelers. As for the shoot down i don't know the circumstances but it was the modeler whose heli it was who reported it.

As regards the ANO 137 i think you may find that it refers to full size aircraft even if it doesn't imply it (you can pay to shoot rc planes with shotguns for fun so it must be legal)

The CAA, Council who ever has the authority will interpret the rules to suite their needs at the time and of course it will all be in the name of heath and safety.

According the the BMFA Handbook articles 138 and 137 "Apply to all model aircraft at all times whatever their weight or size" If that is correct the the farmer would be acting illegally under the ANO - I would also suggest that unless the aircraft was "worrying" animals he would be guilty of criminal damage if he hit the RC Helo

Of course full size aircraft have "permission" to overfly, from the CAA NOT the individual landowner, he does not own the airspace the Crown/CAA and no they are no treated significantly differently in that respect from models, the same proximity rules apply (apart from minimum height) - if you recall a recent airprox report on the south coast between a light aircraft and an RC Model - the CAA place the fault on the light aircraft being too low if I recall correctly

[Erfolg]

I suspect that the police did not want to get involved.

Perhaps one of the members of the police force who frequent this site may make a comment with respect to a number offences that he farmer could have committed.

I understand that it is an offence to discharge a fire arm within 50 feet of a road.

I would also expect that criminal damage has occurred by the act of deliberately shooting or destroying some one elses property.

Flying over some one elses land I thought would be a civil matter, where trespass (that is damage) would have to be proved. I would not have thought that suspecting damage has occurred would entitle you to damage some one elses property.

Then again in a era where burglary and assault are not seen as important, why would the use of a shot gun be seen in a provocative matter, which could be seen perhaps as a potential breach of the peace etc.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

You need the landowners permission to take off, or land, on their property; you do not need their permission to overfly their property, provided that (if your model is fitted with equipment for gathering data) you over fly at greater than 50m - then you are not committing any offence. The farmer therefore almost certainly did commit an offence in shooting down the helicopter. But it is a very common misunderstanding that people believe they have the right to control the air above their property - but it ain't so. Of course what Peter says applies here very much - just because you have the right to overfly someone's property doesn't necessarily mean that it is a wise thing to do!

Regarding the ANO, we cannot pick and choose which clauses apply to models and which do not - the fact is it all applies unless there is a explicit exemption.

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 03/10/2015 23:52:12