Tx past flight line?

[Delta Whiskey]

Leaving your TX in the pits or edge of the flight line seems crazy to me!

 

What happens if your approaching your model, when all of a sudden the motor starts up? (for electric models that is, as I'm assuming you would have hit the kill switch on an nitro / petrol model first) for any reason, such as it falling onto the throttle lever due to wind, unstable ground whatever.....?

 

For me, it's thumb over the throttle lever with TX in one hand.......but then there's no rule I know of for this at my club.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

We had a lot of discussion over this a couple of years ago and I have to admit that no real consensus was reached (possibly due to 2.4 coming along) although most people tended towards the viewpoint that it was probably sensible to take a transmitter with you with the aerial substantially retracted for a lone retrieve of an electric model.  As we have a committee meeting tonight this is a timely prompt to bring the subject up again!

 

There's no specific rule but we do state that we operate under the BMFA guidelines - which state that transmitters should not be operated away from the pits or flightline.

 

In general, we tend to leave transmitters behind when we go out on the field although at quiet times, common sense seems to be adopted. 

 

Interesting thought about your thumb, DW - it might be arguable that it's proximity makes it more prone to inadvertent operation although the main thing is that you're aware of it. I think it's far better to have a switch disabling the throttle - something which I've adopted on all my electric models and easily programmable on Futaba computer transmitters (and probably others) with free mixes.

 

If you want some specific step by step guidance on how to do this, it's probably only ethical to refer you to the letters page of the current edition of a rival magazine (sorry Graham/David but I was replying to one of their articles) where the procedure is detailed. I don't know if they now have a copyright on it or if ownership remains with me?

 

In essence though, I mix minus throttle to  throttle as a switched mix.

Edited By Martin Harris on 01/03/2010 17:31:57

[Andy Gates]

The thing I notice which is coming up now is that the comments seem to be going in the direction of "I now have 2.4GHz so I do not need to follow this rule".

 

The rule required should be for the lowest common denominator, so if one flyer has some cheap 35MHz gear or 27MHz gear, then the rules need to be set at this level for all.

[Erfolg]

Andy

 

Is it time to say although legal, 27 is no longer permitted for aircraft when group flying?

 

Then again the small number of 27s could mean that the probability of being shot down by an adjacent 27 is in most instances very low, due to usage. I guess any movement in this direction could deter those who may become modellers who have purchased a 27 model radio package?

 

Considering the 2.4 and 35 issue, how real a issue is it?

 

I personally think the main issue is that we should all stand in a group, fly our models and put the world to rights. It may be that it is not time to change BFMA rules, though I suspect it will not be to long before it may be deemed that the rule is no longer essential.

 

If a new regime were to be implemented, it may be a preferred practice, maybe no longer being a reference of any type, rather than seen as a significant safety issue.

 

Erfolg

 

[Myron Beaumont]

Is there any wonder I fly on my own for my own personal pleasure ? Too many rules & regulations for me ( Yes !  I do have insurance of course before you ask 'cos that is one "rule" I agree with  I don't really know why though ? Never had any kind of accident in my life . Am I the only one ? I'll carry on paying for the increase talked about in my vehicle insurance as well even though I've never had an incident in nearly 50 years .Not even a speeding or parking ticket

Sorry -Off topic - wrong thread -Just grumpy

[Bob Cotsford]

that's why I like my local club.  A few basic rules, such as compulsory insurance and engine size limits, the rest can then be left to common sense.

[Andy Gates]

Erflog

 

I agree that the use of 27MHz for aircraft should not really be in use by routine fliers. I added it as a bit of a throw away comment.

 

Having said that, there may be the sets of aircraft with transmitter like the older PZ stuff around, attracting those on a restricted purse / wallet.

 

Chances are that these will be purchased by the younger fliers.

 

Are these not the very people we are trying to attract into club flying?
In which case it would be silly of the flying fraternity to make a rule to exclude these very people would it not?

 

Using one of your comments, we all all stand in a group, fly our models and put the world to rights. This is surely what this debate is about.

The Tx's are all together so one transmitter providing a stronger signal than the other would not really occur.

However, space the Tx's around the field and you may well be into a different enviroment. I am sure only testing will tell.

 

All that said, I do however fall into the camp that Myron is in.

 

Predominantly I fly alone for my own pleasure / therapy and I fly as safe as possible, with self imposed no fly zones based on enviromental factors.

I also have mental dump zones, which if I need to dump a plane due to some unforseen incident, I can do so safely.

Sometimes my flying conflicts with the BMFA handbook (typically I do fly over my own head at height since I learned to do this with thermal soarers when I started) but for the majority of the time my flying does follow the handbook.

[Ultymate]

After having attended the Nats at Barkston and seeing just how many trannies were in use around the airfield in all compass locations I think it safe to assume that as I've said earlier the tecnology has overtaken the advice/problem and that there is probably a case for the BMFA re-appraising this advice. Obviously the frequency control for 35Mhz has to remain but nother than that I see no other issues JMHO.

[Tim Mackey]

Exactly - there must be many situations where a model is actually closer ( signal wise ) to other peoples transmitters - as said earlier - its a dinosaur rule.

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

Posted by Andy Gates on 02/03/2010 17:58:35:

Using one of your comments, we all all stand in a group, fly our models and put the world to rights. This is surely what this debate is about.

The Tx's are all together so one transmitter providing a stronger signal than the other would not really occur.

That was exactly the point of the rule, that and being able to communicate with each other to call "deadstick" or "landing" etc etc.

As it happens, we fly from a public place and have to have a none flying marshal on the flight line who is looking out for dog walkers etc, to warn pilots who may not have seen them. So we have someone there that we can hand the Tx to. I much prefer handing over the transmitter to someone I trust, then I have both hands to pick up the plane properly to carry it back.  

 

 

 

 

 

[flytilbroke]

An IC model after landing should as has been said, have a stopped engine. So that leaves Electric. Now is it not the case that the BMFA advice is to always treat an Electric Powered model as "live" and ready to start? Indeed I have seen it stated over a few years that this has actually happened.

 

An Electric Powered model should then have it's pilot Always Ready for it moving forward or even taking off. He/She certainly cannot do that if the tranny is elsewhere.

 

Ps, Not being a BMFA member I am not fully conversant with thier printed documents.

[DAVID CLIFFORD]

Curious all these comments. We have had a few issues of safety at our club recently. Safety is everyones responsibility, period. If you do something that causes an incident or an accident that goes against BMFA recomendations you may have an issue with your insurance. Our club as has been mentioned in another post usually has someone in the pits that will take your tranny while you collect your model. You switch the model off or disconnect the battery, signal to the person holding the Tx that the model is off and they turn off the Tx, Simples.

I cant believe a bunch of helli guys are so anal they wont trust anyone to hold a tranny while they retrieve the model! What are you gonna do? run off with it and leave your stuff at the field and hope noone at the club remembers who you are? Please.

 

D the baffled

[Erfolg]

Just when I thought most thought that there is not really a issue of any significance, I see others feel otherwise.

 

In my own mind the, principally we need to identify the problem, it seems that three have arisen.

 

The issues I think I have seen are:

a) Swamping

b) Being in control at all times

c) Insurance.

 

In the case of a), I think the consensus is that it is not a significant issue for 35 and a non issue for 2.4. As for 27, this also seems to be a non issue due to usage. May be the solution for 27 is to note the need for careful operation when more than one 27 model is in use.

 

I am not sure that b) is an issue if the transmitter is handed to another responsible person, whilst the model is retrieved, or you take the transmitter with you. I guess leaving the transmitter, switched on, whilst the model is retrieved is the least preferable option. Unless it is possible to argue it is in a secure location? My own opinion is that there is not much of an issue of how this part of control is achieved. In the real world there will be many times when the transmitter is momentarily out of our immediate control, such as arming the model. I guess we should not get hung up on the absolute just adhere to the principal as far as is practical.

 

In regard to insurance, I would have thought that the various Laws and regulations of government and state would be the principal, basis of judgement if insurance cover has been invalidated. That is unless the BMFA has specifically, tied in their rule book. The club that I am a member had independent insurance for many years, where no tie was made to the BMFA, for the basis of insurance cover. 

 

Are we now discussing issues which are best addressed by expecting us all to use our common sense and do as we would expect others to do?

[Andy Gates]

"Are we now discussing issues which are best addressed by expecting us all to use our common sense and do as we would expect others to do?"

 

I would say probably, but we are then relying on everybody having the same level and point of view in applying the common sense, and that was the discrepancy in the origional post. Or am I wrong......?

[Glyn R]

Why is leaving the tranny such a big deal, it won't even be out of sight. If you put it down in cow droppings who is to blame?

We use a Tanny hanging hook made for the purpose fitted to the top of the pegboard at the end of the flightline. Everyone uses a peg even 2.4.

We shout taking off, landing and dead stick at the appropriate moments. Landings take priority over take off, dead stick top priority of all. A club A cert is needed to fly unsupervised. 

All seems simple and easy to me. Don't understand what all the fuss is about. Only one person will be landing at any one time.

We can all get it wrong from time to time. I have reached my plane and realised I am still holding the tranny.

I agree the reasons behind the rule are not clear and probably no longer important, However if the rule does me no harm and it is applied fairly I will comply.

Edited By Glyn R on 03/03/2010 19:01:09

[BB]

If Im on my own, and I walk out to my model, the TX goes with me.  It remains switched on & my left thumb is firmly planted at the base of the gimble below the stick, keeping the throttle stick firmly in the down position.

 

When not on my own.  I hand the TX to a club member.  Walk out & signal when I have turned off the RX.  10/10 so far, that member has then turned off my TX and returned it to my area in the pits.

 

I use 2.4Ghz..  I don't quite see the relevance of (some of) these actions.  The TX has a throttle cut switch.  Its 99.9% certain my TX won't cause interference.  In the time it takes me to collect my plane the i.c. engine has cooled sufficiently not to spontaneously start, should I 'knock' the prop.

 

With regard electric powered craft.  I think the idea behind leaving the TX (35 Mhz or 2.4 Ghz).  Is that there is no chance of the throttle, in practical terms, of being re-introduced.  Providing you haven't handed the TX to a 'numpty'.

 

Some guidelines (not rules) need re-visiting BMFA !!

Edited By Basildon Biggles on 03/03/2010 19:47:18

[Allan Bennett]

I'm not a BMFA member, and fly at a non-BMFA club.  I, and all other club members, feel more comfortable being "in control" of our models at all times, so take our transmitters with us when we go to retrieve them from the runway or from adjacent fields.

 

I understand the thing about the possibility of a transmitter swamping one that's further away from the model, but I think that risk is much diminished, if not eliminated, by the quality of modern sets.  In our club we fly only on every other frequency (even channels); another habit dating back to the days when radios' frequency accuracy was not as good as it is today.  We do, however, have all pilots stand together, but that's mainly so we can let each other know what moves we're planning to make.

[Myron Beaumont]

Andy

You said it all ! Common sense rules (ruled ) OK -never mind rules and regulations to cater for those without it (H & S comes to mind again).The only really effective set of rules I can think of that work universally are those of the highway code  

[flytilbroke]

By definition an Electric powered model is "live" until the power source is disconected either by Pulling the Plug or by use of an isolator switch (very uncommon). As I said, it has been known for them to power up unexpectedly. Simple? seems not when it comes to understanding that it has happened and the need to allow for this and to stay in control.

 

Carry on Gentlemen, I have had my say.

[CARPERFECT]

Well lots of replys to my post. A real mixed bag. My opinion is that any rules you have in a club should apply to (ALL) members no matter what you fly . Be it Helis/ Areo, 2.4 /35mhz. The moment you start having rules for different people you risk having an accident. This can lead on to loss of the flying site and peoples lives

[Biggestgerbil]

Posted by Allan Bennett on 03/03/2010 19:49:21: We do, however, have all pilots stand together, but that's mainly so we can let each other know what moves we're planning to make.

 

 

I think Alan is the only one to make this point.  I am an LMA member. At all our shows you see our showpilots standing close together, regardless of frequency.. This is to sustain good communication between pilots.  I wish I could get this over to the "rules, what rules" pillocks at the club I fly at.

 I know that my views on safety may be extreme, but one or two of the posters here say they do not need insurance (OR RULES).  You are totally off your trollies.  One of my own personal acheivements was to lose control of a model and it flew off and dove? under power on to the roof of the owner of the flying site's house. Total  loss of model of course, but considerable damage to the slate roof. He lives almost a mile from the flightline.  I thank the stars it did not injure (or worse) a member of his family.  Alright, rules would not have changed anything but the BMFA insurance sorted it out for me. Who remembers the "Red Ferrari" joke??  Yep!  fly safely, obey the safety code and get insurance.  It maybe that an uninsured flier hits your property or family member. You'd be the first to howl and complain.

 

Last rant.  The last 50 years accident free record are like the air above your model, useless.

 

 It's the next five minutes that matter.

 

Fly Safe.

 

Edited By Ioan Wittmann on 13/05/2010 19:05:10

Edited By Timbo - Administrator on 13/05/2010 19:27:39