On destroying a pupil's Wot 4.....

[Tim Hooper]

Yesterday I was asked to 'stand in' and to take a pupil and his new model for a flight, via a buddy lead. The gent in question has been 'learning' for several years, and has been through his fair share of instructors and models but has still yet to fly solo.

 

He'd bought a nearly-new Wot 4 ARTF and wanted some assistance. Being Mode 2 I found myself volunteered into helping out.

 

So I took the model up and got it trimmed out, before handing over control to my new pupil. No probs. The flight continued well, and I took over the controls to land the model as normal. No probs there either.

 

The second flight saw the same routine. I took off and handed over control to the pupil. I noticed that the model was tending to drift to the left all of the time, and so suggested that the pupil adjust his aileron trim a little. The pupil said he didn't feel comfortable doing this, and asked if I'd reach over to his transmitter and do it for him instead.

 

So glancing away form the model, I reached over and pulled his lever over to the right, expecting to hear the beep-beep noise of a digital trim beung adjusted. Not so. I hadn't noticed that the pupil was flying with quite an old fully-manual Tx, with appropriately manual trims, and I had, in fact, given him full right aileron trim.

 

I looked back to the model only to see it spiralling out of the sky at a good rate of knots and towards a neighbouring field. I took control, but it was too late. The model totalled in the stubble, and I was left feeling very uncomfortable, whilst my erstwhile pupil seemed to take it all in his stride.

 

I've offered to replace the model, but he wants to have a bash at attempting a repair himself.

 

I guess the moral of the story is too carefully check the set-up of a pupils model, before agreeing to act as instructor......

 

tim

[Lazygit]

One of life's little presents Tim. It was a generous offer to replace the model, but not necessary IMO. It's generally understood that the instructor can't be held financially liable for damage to learners' models. If they were, there would be no instructors. It's bad enough damaging your own models, but having to pay for someone elses when they accept the finance for repairs will rest with them, would be the end of teaching as we know it.

 

Having to put up with crashing models is part of aeromodelling. That's why I have six planes in for repair at the moment, and only a pipe lagger flying.

 

Stop teaching ab-initio flyers on expensive aircraft and get them to build a pipe lagger on which they can try every possible problem, and pick it up and probably fly after a few miinutes repair time.

 

 

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Oh dear! But its an occupational hazard of instructing - I think LG's comment is right, it was a generous offer - but in the final analysis I don't think you can hold an instructor responsible for a crash. If we did, as has been said, no one would ever take the job on.

 

I think the unwritten "contract" between instructor and pupil has always been "If it all goes pear shaped I'll do my best to save your model - but there are no gaurentees" and I think most sensible learners accept that - I know I did when I was learning.

 

But all that doesn't make you feel any better when it happens does it

 

BEB

[ken anderson.]

tim-i've had similar circumstances n the past.......obviously you feel partly responsible(human nature)...but i would put it down to one of them things.......from what you've posted it seems that your 'pupil' was ok about matter's....

 

ken anderson ne..1 ..... same boat dept.

[leccyflyer]

It's horrible, isn't it?

 

No matter how much anyone says to the contrary we always feel a bit responsible when it goes badly.

 

I only do a little bit of instructing because, truth be told, I'm not very good at it and we have some real natural teachers in the club .I don't mind taking a beginner up with my own model, on a buddy lead, and I'll stand by someone who can fly a bit, or even take a raw beginner for an air experience flight, with my own model. I don't like flying other people's models at all.

 

Having inherited a long time pupil- who is a bit like the description of your chap Tim - I felt that he was doing well enough one afternoon to try a landing. I hadn't had to intervene at all on the flight and he was positioning the model well, with verbal encouragement. He set her up on a nice approach and, if he'd let go of the sticks, she would have landed herself. Then, inexplicably just crossing the threshold at about four feet he put in a boot of down. Before I could even let go of the trainer switch the model ha hit the deck. I think I was more gutted than he was.

 

Like the guys say Tim, it's the owner' responsibility for mishaps. You were doing him a favour by standing in for his usual instructor. If the chap is happy to do the repairs himself he;s on the right track anyway.

[Spice Cat]

I was on the buddy box and managed to fly into a tree. I didn't blame my instructor but other club members did.

To be fair; the tree made the first move.....

[Seamus O'Leprosy]

"Yesterday I was asked to 'stand in' and to take a pupil and his new model for a flight, via a buddy lead. The gent in question has been 'learning' for several years, and has been through his fair share of instructors and models but has still yet to fly solo."

Sorry about your trouble Tim, but a man learning for years, several instructors, still not solo'd, and trying to learn on a wot4.
Sounds like he needs a reality check on his abilities, harsh and all as this sounds.

[NigelH]

I think that Seamus hit the nail right on the head. Surely a trainer would have been more suitable in this situation ? That wouldn't affect the trims issue but I've done the very same thing myself with someone who had one of those Futaba computer TXs that had analogue trims.

 

[Seamus O'Leprosy]

I have brought several guys through to solo status. But there is a guy who I had to step away from, he won't listen and to be honest a 40 size trainer is too much for him but nothing anyone says will persuade him to try a slow responding stable electric glider.

[Tim Hooper]

Just to clarify. Our pupil has a perfectly good trainer to fly. The Wottie was just an opportune buy, and basically needed to be checked out and then saved for the future.

 

The reason I offered to replace the model was that it's crash was directly due to my mistaking the manual trims for digital ones.

 

tim

[Olly Giles]

Posted by Tim Hooper on 19/09/2011 18:07:46:

So glancing away form the model,

There is the bigger mistake i think....

[Seamus O'Leprosy]

Tim your better nature is getting the better of you.

"Our pupil has a perfectly good trainer to fly. The Wottie was just an opportune buy, and basically needed to be checked out and then saved for the future"

You would not normally bubby box up a plane that was being checked you. Did you force him to have a go or did he twist your arm to take up the Wot for him.

Either way "caveat instructor" hee hee

[David Davis]

At least it wasn't your model Tim.

 

One breezy afternoon I handed my transmitter to a lad who showed some interest in my Senior Telemaster ARTF. This was the same model as I am holding in my avatar but converted to electric power. I was hoping that a stir on the sticks might result in a sale

 

He told me that he had flown in the Eighties and he seemed to be able to handle his Boomerang trainer. He controlled the STM quite well until it was blown off course and he handed the transmitter back to me. I got the model back under control and gave him back the transmitter. Unfortunately I gave him the transmitter with the model downwind in a shallow dive, he must have panicked and put in too coarse a signal which caused the starboard wing to rip away from the fuselage and £400 worth of model crashed to the ground from several hundred feet.

 

I have never seen a model so totally wrecked. I think I managed to save one LiPo.

 

Lessons learned?

 

1. Always give beginners control with the wings straight and level and the model into wind.

2. Always use a buddy lead with beginners on your own models!

3. Never give your transmitter to anybody else unless you're sure they're a better pilot than you are!

 

As for your trainee Tim, I'll bet he was an older gentleman. My experience of teaching older novices is that they're better off learning on a three channel vintage model in calm weather at first. Gliders are capable of slow flight but they are very streamlined and pick up speed quite quickly in a dive.

 

Just my two pennorth.

 

 

 

[Peter Miller]

Hi Tim

 

I don't like instructing but I have been asked on a couple of occasions.

 

One was a farmer who suffered from Parkinson's disease. He wanted to learn to fly so he could scare the pigeons off his fields. (They come back the minute you stop)

 

The trouble was A) after a few minutes he would droop the Tx and sort of apply down I have pulled his trainer out of more vertical dives at full power than I care to remember.

 

B) flying sessions tended to be weeks and even moths apart.

 

Our first lesson was on a bitterly cold day. Half way through the flight a snow storm arrived. We got the model back down OK

 

On a later session he had it under some sort of control but too low and too far away. He flew straight into a tree. MY fault. I should have taken it back before that stage.

 

I was able to replace his model at trade price but he insisted on paying for it.

 

The farmer has since died.

 

Another person wanted lessons. On our first session we went to a field where we could fly at anytime after phoning the owner.

 

This field suffers from interference and he was hit at about 800 feet. Nothing I could do could save it.

 

Once again I was able to replace his model and save him quite a bit of money. This one was not my fault or his. We lost several models on that field.

 

I never saw him again.

 

One does feel responsible and I felt especially so on the first case.

Edited By Peter Miller on 20/09/2011 08:26:18

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Its always a difficult call isn't it - when is the right moment to take control? If you step in too readily you both undermine the pupil's confidence and deny them the opportunity to learn how to get out of trouble. On the other hand if you leave it too late....well I don't have to paint a picture do I?

 

Getting it just right is a skill very good instructors have. The other one is being able to stop your voice going up in octaves as the situation looks more and more problematic

 

BEB

[Kelly]

A bit off topic, but the boomerang mentioned in Davids post may not have been put together with enough glue on the important bits

 

Boomerang wing failure

 

 

Kelvin

[David Davis]

Oh no Kelvin. It was not the Boomerang which crashed. It was my own very much more expensive Senior Telemaster!

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

Watching an aircraft spiral down out of control is bad enough when its your own model...it must be 10 times worse when its someone elses so I can sympathise enormously Tim. But then its all part of the game I'm afraid.....if you fly models you WILL crash at some time....simple as that.

 

I think your offer to replace the model was very noble & since the guy seems OK with the situation I think it would be OK to leave it at that & put it all down to experience......

[Tim Hooper]

Well gents, I've made the offer so we'll see what happens.

 

Thanks for all the advice! Just for the record, I am a nominated BMFA instructor (woooo......), so I'm used to the foibles and vagaries of pupils in general.

The point of this thread was to remind everybody entrusted with a master Tx, just to check that the slave tranny is of a familiar persuasion.

tim

[Seamus O'Leprosy]

" slave tranny is of a familiar persuasion"
Thanks Tim, my coffee is gone every where.
Seamus

[Allan Bennett]

Posted by Tim Hooper on 20/09/2011 23:30:57:

The point of this thread was to remind everybody entrusted with a master Tx, just to check that the slave tranny is of a familiar persuasion.

tim

 

At our club we haven't used a buddy lead for training for years. We just pass the transmitter from one to the other. The reason was, we found we were needing two competent pilots just to set the ruddy system up whenever someone came with their own "slave" trannie -- one to operate the "master", and the other to trim the "slave" so that there's no discernible difference between them when operating the model.

 

I had read (I thought) that with a computer trannie as the "master", the trims on the "slave" wouldn't be operative -- obviously not true, from your experience. Or does that only apply if the "slave" is a computer trannie too?

[Tim Mackey]

Depends on the system - I tried a few experiments the other day with my mode 1 DX8 and my mates mode 2 JR 11X. Set my DX8 to P-Link Master, and thats all we had to do!

He plugged in the buddy lead to his switched off JR ( set to a blank model memory ) and thats it - both sets recognized their status, and off we went.

All servo directions, throws mixes etc were completely retained as all the slave really does is have "stick inputs.

You just have to set the trainer function to active for each model you wish to share.

We then tried it the other way around, and again - just as simple. Brilliant.

We can now simply and quickly fly any of each others models at will.

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

I think Tims right....the newer radios tend to work better on a lead.

 

If I use my Futaba 10C as the Master then it does just that.....all the mixes, trims etc are controlled by the Master. All the slave does is provide the two sticks for the student to twiddle.

 

I'm intruiged though Tim.....I know you're a Mode 1 flyer....can you have your Master Tx set to Mode 1 & the students set to Mode 2 (so he can learn the correct way to fly...)

[Tim Mackey]

Absolutely - thats one of the great beauties of the buddy system - it doesn't care who is on what mode - heck you can even have the master on mode 1, and the slave, quite correctly on the inferior mode 2

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Timbo. You're a very naughty boy...