Are there or has been any wobble plate model engines?

[Erfolg]

The heading says it all really.

I have seen some horizontal IC engines in magazines and the RCV engine, But has there been a wobble plate or swash plate model engine?

[kc]

There was a model enginet about 10 years ago in RCME, name was something like Ericsson I think , which used some new principle.

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

I'm sure I recall one from the late 70's early 80's........is had a sort of "S" shaped conrod as I recall......

Can't remember the name though.....

[Erfolg]

Ithink that was the Aero, although, is it a swash plate motor?

[kc]

I was referring to the Erickson MCC FE120 Dual Migrating Combustion Chamber 2 stroke glow reviewd by Clarence Lee in RCM Nov 98. Also in RM or RCME around that date.

[Erfolg]

Is this it?

[kc]

Yes. thats the one reviewd in 1998 and there is another 2 cu inch version. I assume that what you meant by a 'horizontal' engine?

[PatMc]

The Aero 35 was tested in Aeromodeller in Dec 1963.

[PC.Vere]

ERFOLG

I realise that there have been a lot of attempts at swashplate engines and wobble plate axial piston engines for full scale aircraft, (which are nothing like the ones above, - different principle) - the most successful was a large wobble plate engine built for Bristol tramways before WW2. There were many similar experimental ones built also, which never went into production due to a multitude of problems. Many people refer to them as "barrel engines".

There is a company in America who have a successful cam plate engine operating in aircraft (Dynacam I think) and I believe  it is slowly getting there, - it is based on the German cam plate motor (Hermann).

I have also thought that they would be great for model aircraft, but because of the complexity involved I would very much doubt if they would ever be a commercial success for model aircraft,. and would go the way of the OS Wankel and Ericcson, (which are also good ideas).

Even the single cylinder four strokes are complicated enough for that role. being also heavy and more complicated! - that is not of course saying that they are no good, but they are pricey!

The ordinary old faithful two stroke has still got the best power to weight ratio for models (however much it is criticised) the price is right! and I see that the petrol/ spark ignition versions are getting down to the smaller sizes!

I'm sure you've found lots of info on swashplate and wobble plate engines, but If you haven't found much and are interested I could maybe dig up some links from quite a few years back on these types (not model stuff though).

Edited By Percy Verence on 02/01/2013 01:06:32

[Erfolg]

Hi Percy

I have seen a wobble plate motor used to start a ships Gas Turbine ( for a navel ship), which was driven by compressed air, if I remember correctly, as it was a long time back.

The most memorable event of the testing, was when immediate combustion was not achieved by the GT, then fuel ignited in the test house discharge stack, splitting it apart.

The motors worked well from memory.

[PC.Vere]

ERFOLG

I have never seen one of these engines/motors, air or otherwise, and I think it would have been interesting to see the air driven type you have seen.

I find the design of wobble plate engines (and all axial piston engines in general) fascinating, but as I said before, I seriously doubt their viability in production in model form.

However it would be interesting to see a keen engineer design and bulld one as a " one off" project.

I have the ability and training but lacking in equipment since I moved to a smaller home and of course my mind is willing, but my body is lagging behind a little!

[Frank Skilbeck]

They do sound good, watch the video on here

[flytilbroke]

That looks a smart idea as demo by the Duke Engines. I suspect high wear on that Ball Joint though, which could mean high maintenance time and cost.

[TheFlyingCrust]

Has anyone ever made a small-scale deltic? That'd be an interesting project!

Ian

[Simon Chaddock]

How about this

Petrol rather than diesel but otherwise a Deltic.

Not satisfied he is building a Naper Sabre as well!

Edited By Simon Chaddock on 04/01/2013 22:03:08

[001]

Having looked at that model Deltic, and Sabre, I am amazed. British engineering at its best.

I remember a documentary on TV about a Frenchman who built a Ferrari sports car with everything working, including the 12 cylinder boxer engine at about 1/12 scale, that was pretty special, but I think the Deltic beats it!

Just found a short excerpt from the documentary about the Ferrari on YouTube. Look for Ferrari 312PB replica scale model. Original programme was about 30 minutes long.

 

Edited By Chris P. Bacon on 04/01/2013 23:42:22

[PC.Vere]

Yes, but he Sabre didn't survive in aircraft unfortunately, as the turbines took over. It was also quite unpopular with the engine mechanics because of its complexity. As for the Deltic, it certainly proved itself in trains, but even though it was unusual, it was a commercially successful design. however, it is not related to the wobble plate designs we are talking about!

The Duke engine certainly is! - I was totally unaware of it's design and development here in Auckland, probably only a few kilometres from where I am sitting! - It seems to be a development of the Bristol engine which was the only successful engine of its type (but you can correct me if I am wrong.).

However it would be almost impossible to get any manufacturers to change from the successful and profitable designs they already have, to something that could bring them to their knees, - as was the case with NSU in Germany when they decided to go with the then revolutionary Wankel engine which it turned out, still needed some massive development work and even Mazda and others have had only very limited success with the Wankel.

It does seem that Duke have made great strides in developing their axial piston (wobble plate) engine though, - I wish them luck in their endeavours to break into the engine market. and If they are successful they can perhaps make a smaller one for modellers as a sideline when they retire with their millions! - but by that time I'll be confined to bed - or 6 foot under!      

 

Edited By Percy Verence on 08/01/2013 23:12:58

[John Olsen 1]

There have been all sorts of intriguing alternative designs for engines over the years, but most of them fall foul of the laws of thermodynamics. The Wankel for example makes for a nice compact smooth design, but with a very poor combustion chamber shape which makes for poor thermal efficiency, and also lots of sliding friction from those somewhat problematic seals.

Swash plate engines tend to suffer from high friction too, but can at least have combustion chamber shapes good as a normal reciprocating engines. That idea goes back to the steam engine days, there was an engine called the Colt, named after the revolver, designed for steam launches in the 1890s. It had six cylinders arranged around the shaft, just like the revolver, hence the name.

Someone in the sixties proposed a swashplate IC engine with curved cylinders. It eliminated some joints between the swash plate sliders and the pistons, but would have required some interesting tooling to make.

The existing manufacturers mostly have people well enough versed in thermodynamics and mechanical engineering to have a fair idea what is likely to work. The downsides of the Wankel were pointed out by Phil Irving, designer of the Vincent motorcycle, way back in the sixties or maybe early seventies.

The real rotary engine is actually the gas turbine, the only reason they have not taken over even more is lack of materials able to stand the required temperatures. Something that could retain the strength of high tensile steel and not creep while at white heat would be nice. While also being cheap and easy to form

John

[Paul Marsh]

I saw one for sale at a swopmeet a few years ago. Weird!

[PC.Vere]

John, - Well said, Phil Irving had most things sussed! -

I do believe that the turbine engine beats them all for aircraft but as you say the material problems will always make them expensive, and if a turboprop, even more expensive.

It's still great to hear one of those (expensive) small turbines running in a model though, but they're not suitable for your average dummy to handle even if he is rich!

Much as I'd love to see these alternative engines work in models (and I don't mean static show models) the fact is, the single cylinder two stroke, maybe the single cylinder four stroke and electric motors will probably rule the roost in the foreseeable future!

[Erfolg]

At this time there are small turbines under development for automotive and industrial applications.

Unlike the model turbines, these commercial units have compression ratios in excess of 20:1.

I did have the details of unit above, unfortunately now lost and the details erased from memory by time.

I know there has been attempts to produce ceramic impellers, although the obvious issue is that of the brittle nature of the material.

[PC.Vere]

I read (quite a few years ago) that development of rotating parts made of ceramic material was made difficult by the fact, that (when trying to analyse them after they failed), they found that they had been literally reduced to dust!

Edited By Percy Verence on 09/01/2013 20:06:13

[PC.Vere]

**LINK**

**LINK**

Some of you may have seen this one, definitely a model wobbleplate engine but I would think it's really only suitable for bench display or a model boat, not for an aircraft! - maybe there are some more!

....................but the prices are another thing!

[Immo Drust]

Here my Wobble Plate Model Engine.

Bought via eBay. no more Information about that engine. sorry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D60WuDQ1bwE

[Peter Miller]

I think that the Aero 35 could be classed as a single cylinderwobble plate engine