Luftwaffe or RAF?

[Dai Fledermaus]

I know it's easy for people like us who have an interest in aircraft to nit pick when it comes to library footage shown on television programmes, but sometimes I see things which realy make me despair.

last week, I think it was, on a BBC programme called Heir Hunters they were tracing the family tree of a chap who had served as a flight engineer in Bomber Command during WW2. They then went on to show some archive footage of mainly Lufwaffe aircraft, a Heinkell 111 , JU 87 on bombing missions.

Now I appreciate that the people who put these programs together were born long after the war ended but you would think they could tell the difference between RAF aircraft and that of the Luftwaffe. The big black crosses are a bit of a clue.

[Tangental]

That's a disgrace! So close to the unveiling of the Bomber Command Memorial too! I didn't see it but I hope the footage was to show why so many of our young men were willing to fly to their deaths and not just a poorly thought out production.

[MikeS]

Yep I agree. Seen many films where they take off in say a 747 and land in a MD80 and yes it really hacks me off. I agree that not many people have any interest in aircraft and could not tell the difference.

But to show a German plane as a British plane is way off.

Mike

[Danny Fenton]

that is way out of order, and is just lazy on the part of the program maker. I think its the researchers job that everything is factually correct, however much of the research is held by the BBC so probably no chance that anything is labelled up correctly lol

cheers

Danny

[Prop Nut]

This is something that regularly winds me up. You see a Lancaster taking-off, followed by a Ventura in flight, with a B-17 (or even, memorably, a Waco glider) landing; all, supposedly, the same aircraft losing and re-growing engines at will. One of the worst offenders is a Freeview channel that purports to make definitive programmes on the history of the Second World War. My wife tells me I'm too picky and that most people can't tell the difference, but it took me thirty years to get her to tell a Spitfire from a Lanc, or a Dakota from a P-47, so I'm not sure her opinion counts!

[Lima Hotel Foxtrot]

It can be a money issue. All this footage costs to get hold of and license for the programme, so programme makers try to save dosh by going with the cheapest they can get - espescially if the programme is outside of primetime broadcast - and make the best of it.

People really don't understand how stupidly expensive TV is to make, so a lot of it is made DOWN to a budget - one of many reasons so much of it is rubbish.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I take your point Lima - I know you're right - but don't you think its really still down to laziness or a "slap-dash" attitude, or even worse having such a low opinion of the viewer that it doesn't matter because they won't know!

I can't believe that that isn't any relatively cheap WWII RAF bomber footage!

BEB

PS one slightly funny example of their laziness. A guy I know is blessed with the sort of facial expression that perminantly looks like he's lost a pound and found sixpence! He can't help it, its just the way he is. One day he was coming through arrivals at Liverpool Airport and there was a TV film crew there. He thought nothing more of it. Then, for the next 6-8 years everytime the news reported "There were serious delays for passengers at XXXXX airport today", out came my miserable mate, pushing his miserable baggage trolly! He must be filed under "miserable bloke in airport" - according to the TV he's been "miserable bloke in Manchester", "miserable bloke in Alicante", "miserable bloke at Heathrow", miserable bloke at JFK"! We used to run a book on were he would "be" next!

[001]

Today on Heir Hunters there was an item about a pioneering pilot from the 1920's and 30's - the same film of a bomber taking off was shown at least 3 times. (At least it wasn't shown mirror image).

The news programmes also really insult the viewers intelligence. They think that nobody knows what a motorway looks like so they show the same old films of the M25 taken from a bridge (items about traffic hold ups) or,rainy countryside - footpath and finger post (bad weather), a high street bank (financial news), or, a school entrance, (education news), or, two police officers walking down a pavement with their backs to camera (crime news), a fuzzy picture of a medical procedure (health) a picture of some pills going down a conveyor belt (drugs) etc. etc. These pictures are not needed to back up the words unless they are live or recent and relate to a specific news story.

It reminds me of the old 'Two Ronnies' sketch where they showed a picture of a Lord, a Privy and a Seal (animal) one after the other to illustrate the expression.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I watched, with some puzzlement, a DVD purporting to be the story of the Lancaster given to me by a work colleague, which contained many minutes of footage of Liberators, Mitchells, and various other aircraft, the only common factor being that they weren't single engined fighters!

To be fair, there was some decent footage taken of the East Kirkby based Lanc...

[Lima Hotel Foxtrot]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 11/03/2013 22:11:33:

I take your point Lima - I know you're right - but don't you think its really still down to laziness or a "slap-dash" attitude, or even worse having such a low opinion of the viewer that it doesn't matter because they won't know!

Well, yes, there is that as well. Oftimes it also stems from desperately trying to meet deadlines in the face of editorial / producer idiocy.

[Major]

Well, what can you do?? Every time I watch any documentary, I keep my mind open. I would even say that some of them are like legends - contain just a little seed of true. If anybody wants to check what I mean - go to youtube and search for "Wings of Russia", episode about jets and Valley of the Migs for example (entire series is just... strange in my opinion)

The best documentaries in general are about Battle of Britain, but

The Untold Battle of Britain

is one of my favourites .

Cheers

Tom

PS. This post by no meaning has anything in common with politics, so please don't get me wrong.

[Colin Leighfield]

One of the problems I think is that the producers of these programmes don't have a clue themselves. Unfortunately, the other thing is that what is obvious to us means nothing to most people viewing, generally they can't tell one plane from another. It's very rare to see a programme in which the aircraft shown have any relationship to the programme script, not only are the planes not the ones being described, they are often years out in time as well. I doubt very much if we'll see it improve though.

[MikeS]

Just to add to fun I was watching a documentary, yet another about Mitchell's finest.

The narrator of course not his fault was explaining how the undercarriage retracted in to the wing in some detail. The next footage which was to show this had me in stitches. I watched in amazement as the gear when it retracted twisted through 90 degrees. Well at least it was a British version of the P40 that is something I guess.

Not sure what Mitchell would make of it

Mike

[Peter Miller]

I have been moaning about this for years. Even wrote to a TV company about a schools program which was so completely wrong on dates, aircraft, history etc. That was well over 30 years ago. never got a reply.

All it takes is someone which knows aircraft to watch and say. "You can't use that.

Yes, I watched a plane crashing within the last few months. The commentary said it was a spitfire if I remember correctly. That was a Waco Hadrian crashing among others already on the ground. Also a so called Me 109 going down in the channel. A Spitfire! Then we get Fw 190s in the Battle of Britain.

I have written about this sort of thing.

But when you look at the sort of people that the programs are mainly aimed at, is it any wonder the program makers don't care about accuracy and facts?

[Dave Bran]

Last year was involved with a Film Company, filming "Rosa Parks, True Story" the lady that started the end of racial segregation in the southern US by refusing to give up her blacks only seat on a bus to a white person when all the white seats became full.

The bus involved is preserved in a US Museum, it was a 1950s bloated overweight integral curved design as so many were then, light green, has observation glass panels in the roof cornices, looks more like a coach than a bus, and the driver sits in with the passengers, an integral part of the tale since it was the driver that insisted she move. Obviously, it was LHD.

I indicated I knew of a local 1960 light green coach with cornice glass that while RHD might suffice, being close in appearance, but they happily used a 1929 RHD very square seperate wings lightweight design maroon and white half cab bus with large side lettering for Sunderland Corporation!

Their stated reasoning was costs, yet they hired a (older) period US car from Devon to film it briefly as a pure accessory. (when a V8 Pilot, loads of which are around, would have done!)

Makes a bit of a mockery of the title, Eh?

[Barrie Dav 2]

There is an old saying 'If a job's worth doing - do it well'. I might add 'Or leave it alone'. Shoddynes/ Sloppyness often seems the order of the day now. Don't bother with too much research, nobody will notice...............Wrong!

[Ruprect Spode]

It's all very annoying, I call it PULP FACTION. Then I remember the spoof 'Airplane' movie when the four jet has the constant droning of a piston four prop and still laugh. I wonder how many of the viewers got that joke?

[Dai Fledermaus]

Thanks for your contributions here fellers, good to know I'm not on my own in wanting a reasonable amount of historical accuracy in these programmes. I see the excellent Foyle's War returns to our screens in the next week or so. Here at least the production team make an effort to get the period just about right.

[Lima Hotel Foxtrot]

Posted by Ruprect Spode on 15/03/2013 10:05:58:

It's all very annoying, I call it PULP FACTION. Then I remember the spoof 'Airplane' movie when the four jet has the constant droning of a piston four prop and still laugh. I wonder how many of the viewers got that joke?

If I recall correctly, that is a reference to "Nightmare at 20,000 Feet." That's the one where William Shatner sees a Gremlin on the wing of his plane.

'Owzat for a pub fact?!

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

The magic of the Airplane spoofs went for me as soon as I watched Airport 79 The Concorde which was far more ridiculous than Captain Roger Over and crew could ever manage.

If you haven't ever watched it, seek out a copy because it is hilarious...such moments as the pilot firing a Very light from the cockpit window to fool a heat seeking missile, then outmanoeuvering a Phantom, a bullet riddled Concord with damaged hydraulics over running the runway and being stopped by a catch net - and repaired overnight to be flown again for future adventures the next day including a landing on a hastily prepared airstrip at a ski resort, will suspend all sense of belief! Just the airframe loads pulled in the dogfight would surely have grounded the aircraft for months of checking - if it would ever have been allowed to fly again...

[Erfolg]

Being quite honest, I can live with continuity issues as described, from a perspective of a bigger picture.

What I find much harder to deal with, is the re-writing of history, to fit with a political, or national narrative.

For once on Great Railway journeys of the World, which dealy with Austria and addressed the begining of WW1, the opening historic events were for once correct, this is unusual. What then irked me that how and why it became a major conflict, was then omitted. This is hardly ever looked at in detail.

Events leading to WW2 are very similar. Which are far more complex, than often depicted, involving issues which go back beyond WW1.

The Boar war and Crimea war are also treated in the same manner and so on. As what happened and why, are often very different than the popular national depiction.

But history has always been so.

So a few continuity issues with aircraft, although disappointing, are small beer.

[PatMc]

Erfolg, they always make a pigs ear of the Boar war in documentaries.

[Pete B]

Nice one, Pat - I saw what you did there....

Unfortunately, Erflog, history tends to be written by the victors.......

Pete

[Major]

Martin

I checked on YT... In many aspects this movie is like Star Wars and if someone is masochist I'd recommend it.

Here is the link to Concorde scenes from this movie

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

CSB will be in tears watching those clips!