ken anderson. Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 hello BEB ........I've just looked at this build thread of yours and you are mentioning that the stain wont go on the bits of balsa with the glue stain's on? ...........fear not-go to poundland and get a wood touch up kit...they are 3 pens of different colour wood stains........I bet they will do the job for you...and give the model a bit of weathered look ......etc... ken Anderson ne..1 ..... poundland/aero dept.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Hooper Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 My vote is follow Vecchio's advice. Use an acrylic (or enamel) water based paint. One coat and it all looks the same. It worked for me........... Colin Edited By Colin Hooper on 30/01/2014 10:58:57 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bott - Moderator Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Hi BEB If you're going to veneer, I'd suggest 1/64" ply. It's almost paper thickness, so wouldn't add much of a "step" anywhere. I also think the very close grain would look much better stained than balsa. Otherwise, I think I'd be heading for a painted finish. I'm thinking maybe leave the open structure stained, but cover the sheeted structure with something, say tissue, to take the paint. Then do a nice glossy red, or perhaps a classic vintage cream. Something that contrasts nicely with the timber structure behind. Just my 2p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanR Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 BEB, just a thought, whichever wood and stain you use, would it be an idea to stain it before attaching it to the model? That way any glue which finds its way onto the top surface might just wipe off - depends on which stain you're using, I suppose. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kc Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Ronseal sell a 'graining' kit which is a base coat and a different colour top coat which gives a realistic wood effect. I would use that or two colours of acrylic paint to simulate wood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vecchio Austriaco Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 @IanR - no - doesn't work - glues like aliphatic, superglue or PVA are penetrating the wood - therefore they glue very well - after a treatment with stain the wood is impregnated and the glue will no longer penetrate into the wood --> the parts will bond only superficial and the bonded area will have much less strength . So no snap rolls possible!!! VA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plummet Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 KC, The word you are looking for is scumbling. This is the technique of using two different colours of paint, one on top of the other, and using a comb like thingy to reveal the lower layer through the upper - while the upper layer is still wet. Warning - going off on one... I remember helping a chap deliver a narrow boat he had painted. I spent many hours on the stern admiring the beautiful timberwork on top of the cabin as we chugged across the Pennines. It was only when we got there that I asked a question and I learned that what I was looking at was scumbled steel. This was before the chap in question was well known as one of the best narrow boat painters in the country. Plummet Edited By Plummet on 30/01/2014 16:49:54 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kc Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 No Plummet when I said graining I meant graining! Graining is "painting in the imitation of the grain of wood" while Scumble is a somewhat similar process but the dictionary (Collins ) defines scumbling without mentioning imitating wood grain but " a wash to soften the tone of an under coat of paint" I think artists say scumbling when they mean applying it over a coat of paint that is still wet. Different effect.In the case of graining the undercoat is left to dry first.So I did mean graining using Ronseal Paint & Grain or similar colours. Just a few streaks of the slightly different colour ( on top of already dry paint )could give a very realistic wood effect with little effort. Whatever term you use it might easily solve the DF (Dalmation Flyer) problem. However the simplest solution might be not covering the model in more balsa but to veneer it with a bit of mahogany veneer. Make a really classy job and very little extra weight. Marquetry veneers are very thin and can be ironed on if PVA is allowed to dry or Glue film used. But no problem using PVA wet as the colour is already there!Edited By kc on 30/01/2014 17:42:20 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanR Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 @ Vecchio & BEB. When thinking about "pre-staining" the wood, I imagined doing the top surface, only, of BEB's new laminate. As it would be glued from the bottom side I don't think there should be a problem. Also, I would apply the stain with a cloth, or a french polisher's button, rather than a brush. This allows only very small amounts to be applied at a time which would not drench the laminate so that the stain soaked right through to the other side. Of course, this may need more than one coat to be applied, allowing each to dry before applying the next, to get the required depth of colour. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted January 30, 2014 Author Share Posted January 30, 2014 Good evening all! Well first of all I'll like to say its been a pretty stressful 48 hours! But a great big "thank you" for all the support and great suggestions. It really does show the tremendous help you can get on here and the tremendous depth of knowledge there is - truly staggering! Well which one have I tried? I decided to go for the 1/32" sheet. Why? Well I'm sure that the 1/64" ply and the veneer ideas would be good - but I don't have any! But I do have 1/32" sheet in stock. I don't want to delay - I have a Typhoon to finish and while I am enjoying building the DF I really want to get the Typhoon flying this summer. So I need a solution I can do now. Hence the 1/32" sheet. Now - if you are of a nervous disposition I advise you not to look at he next three photographs! They may distress those of a sensitive nature! Here is what I was up against, the side,... Yuk! The other side,... double Yuk! And worst of all - brace yourself, the rear decking,... OMG - what a mess. These were taken after 4 complete coats and several attempts to "touch in" areas which in reality just made everything worse by making things even more patchy - if that was possible. So, on with the 1/32 sheeting,... Note I'm not worried about the nose - I have other plans for there! The adhesive used was Evo-Stick TimeBond contact adhesive - no liquid! Then on with a first coat of stain. Here is the side,.., And here is the rear decking,.. Now, that's a bit of an improvement! That's just one coat and no rubbing down - just as applied. Its obviously lighter than the lattice tail section but with a few more coats it should catch up! Phew! With a bit of luck - and some help from you guys - I think we just might have snatched victory from the jaws of defeat! BEB Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 30/01/2014 21:45:15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Bennett Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 nice one. looks better now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingman Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Huh! Just shows how 'off piste' I am - I actually liked it the way it was - I thought it had a castor oil splashed antique patina in keeping with the design Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masher Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Well recovered BEB, are you now going to distress and weather it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kc Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Obviously veneering with balsa works well but the glue must increase weight somewhat.The thing is what is the advice to new builders....to stain or varnish the balsa ( but not edges to be glued)before glueing the sides in place? I reckon that using PVA and wiping the excess off properly with a damp rag then drying should enable the stain to be even. Could you try a sample of staining over a wiped clean PVA joint for the benefit of new builders BEB? Naming the stain & glue used would be helpful because there were (are?) spirit based stains as well as water based and the result might differ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted January 31, 2014 Author Share Posted January 31, 2014 Well 3 coats on now - and its toning down very nicely to match the colour of the lattice work. I'll post some piccies once its done. That's a very good question that kc has posed, and others have mentioned it too! So to repay all your kindness in putting on your thinking caps when I desperately needed a solution I have set up a little experiement. I've taken a piece of scrap 1/8" balsa and put various glues on it! In each case I put a spot of glue - about 2-3mm diameter on the surface, left it there for 10 secs and then carefully tried to completely wipe it off. The glues I've used are: 1. Pink Zap (thin CA) 2. Deluxe Materials aliphatic resin 3. Evo-Stick wood glue (green bottle) PVA 4. Bob Smith Industries 5min epoxy (in this case it was applied immediately on mixing and two spots were done. In one case simply wiped off as the others, in the second case wiped off then cleaned with acetone). I will leave the wood now overnight. Tomorrow (when its going to be pouring with rain I am reliably informed ) I will give the wood a light sanding of the sort it might get on a model, then I will stain it with Ronseal water-based PU stain/varnish and we'll see what happens. For good or bad at least we'll know. BEB Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 31/01/2014 19:40:44 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Fairgrieve Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 That could be useful as I am using Deluxe Materials aliphatic resin, as I do on most of my builds. Thanks for doing this and paving the way. Kev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Reynolds LaserCraft Services Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Just been doing some catching up on here (I'm well behind the times lol), and just seen this, I'm really gutted for you BEB. Again it's not something I thought of, but I'm hoping my twist on things won't be effected too much by this, I really do hope you get it sorted. Edited By Dylan Reynolds on 31/01/2014 19:51:09 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted January 31, 2014 Author Share Posted January 31, 2014 I think I'm sorted now thanks Dylan - its actually looking pretty good as the coats go on. I'll probably add one more coat after a good rub down and leave it at that. Then we can move on! BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devcon1 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 BEB Patience of a Saint, we've all had those moments when something goes wrong, well recovered ( no pun intended).. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted February 1, 2014 Author Share Posted February 1, 2014 Thanks John - but I'm not sure about the patience of a saint bit . The air was pretty colouful a few times over the last couple of days. The good news is that as far as the fusleage is concerned I think I'm out of the woods. Here's the rear decking,... And one of the sides,... TBH the photographs don't really do it justice - his says modestly - but it does look even better in real life, with a nice, but nit excessive, shine. The grain shows nicely too. But then I thought that the photographs of when it was bad didn't do it justice either, in that it looked much worse in real life! What about our experiment? Well I rubbed the test surface down this morning until I was sure I could feel no glue - only wood - and then cleaned it and stained it. The result? Almost perfect! Only the epoxy that was wiped off but not cleaned up with acetone left any trace. Strange? For the PVA and the Aliphatic I think this shows that provided you clean it off quickly (remember I left it for only 10 secs) and clean it off thoroughly, you will get away with it. But I expected that the CA would stain - even in 10 secs because it dries faster than that. But it didn't. Sadly the same isn't true on the model . I put the first coat of stain on the cockpit combing this morning and guess what? Yeap, pathchy as hell. Interestingly not from the aliphatic that was used to fix it on, but from the CA that was used to join panels to make up the sheeting. I'll have to skin that too with 1/32" sheet. Next up, today's progress. BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Winks Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Hi Dave from what I can see in those photo's you seem to have recovered well (pun intended) Just a quick techie question here, have you got your camera set to its highest resolution, I set mine to 5 mega pixels and it seems to load a larger picture than yours making detail easier to see, Just a thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted February 1, 2014 Author Share Posted February 1, 2014 Today I was working on the rudder and elevator control systems. First we need to make up some supports for the servo tray,... For reasons that will become apparent in a moment I have to make the servo tray removable, so that means screwing it in rather than gluing which would be more usual. So, the supports have a hardwood facing to give the screws something to bite into and balsa behind that just to increase the gluing area for the supports themselves. Here they are in place in the model,.. Note the triangular section balsa has been sanded to less than a right angle to take into account the sloping fuselage sides. It doesn't matter that the hardwood isn't hard against the side as long as the balsa under it is. Notice that this servo position is somewhat further forward than on the plan. These servos will sit almost exactly on the CoG positioned between the U/C bearers. Now we can test fit the tray which is made of 3mm lite-ply,... Now the reason why I want a removable servo tray is because the rudder and elevator control runs are on very different levels. The rudder linkage runs very low in the fuselage whilst the elevator linkage runs very high. The easiest way I could think of to achieve this was to mount the servos one upside down (for the rudder) and the other, the elevator, right way up. Like this,... Now the potential problem with this arrangement is how the hell do you get the servo screws in the upside down one? And how would you get that servo out at later date if it were to fail? The bottom sheeting is all glued on, there is no access from underneath. So, that's why the servo tray can be removed - to get at this inverted servo. 'cont' Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 01/02/2014 21:19:36 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Winks Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Some nice ingenious thinking there Dave coming along nicely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted February 1, 2014 Author Share Posted February 1, 2014 Ok onward,.. Now we need to make up the elevator control push rod. 5mm dowel is the wood of choice - stiff enough for this model. First we take a shortish length (about 50mm) of 2mm wire and put a Z-bend in one end,.. How do you make a nice neat Z-bend like that? Easy, use a pair of these,.. Z-bend pliers - indispenable. Even if you only fly ARTF you need to make z-bends now and then - these make the whole process accurate and painless. Next we put a 90 degree bend in the other end of the wire,.. Drill a 2mm hole about 25mm or so from the end of the dowel perpendicular to its length, cut a shallow groove from this hole to the end of the dowel. Some folks make this groove deep enough to take the wire - but this dowel is quite thing and it isn't essential. As long as the groove is deep enough to locate the wire that's fine,.. I use an old round section mini file who's tip has broken off years ago to gouge this out. Its the perfect tool for the job! Next we bind the wire in place, I use black nylon thread. Its a pain to work with - very slippy - but its fabulously strong! The whipping is done by winding from the hole end to the tip then working back to the hole,... That whole section is then treated to a nice jacket of 5min epoxy to hold everything in place. Here it is being trial fitted in the fuselage to check the control run and mark the dowel to length,.. Once we have the dowel the right length its time to make up the other end with a clevis for fine adjustment,... But we are not going to fit this yet, first we are going to stain the control rod to make it much less conspicuous as it runs the length of the rear latticed part of the fuselage and we have learnt the lesson of "gluing and then staining"! So in this case we will "stain and then glue"! The stain will not effect the epoxy jacket. The first coat of stain is on that and its hanging up to dry. Now we need to do the rudder to idle-bar link. This is straight forward. Take a length of 2mm control rod - I use the ones that are ready threaded at one end. Cut to length, thread the other end with a 2mm die and fit ball links on both ends. You could do this with a z-bend and clevis - but you would need to be fussier about the exact height of the idle-bar and the inverted servo's servo arm. Using ball joints I just have to get them reasonably close not spot on. As it was I found that I had to ease F4's inner cut-out a little in the corner to clear the control run. Here is the servo end,... And here is the idle-bar end,.. The screws are not correctly installed there - they are installed the easiest way! - simply to check the control rod length is close enough to allow adjustment on the ball-link holders. One more tool used today that we haven't mentioned,... This is a pin-vice - very handy for holding small drills - from 0.5mm up to about 2.5mm. A lot quicker than getting the Dremel out, and being a hand tool I find its gentler on the materials and I can use it more sensitively. Handy tool I drill pretty well all my small holes - clearance or pilot - with this. Next we move on to fitting the tail! BEB Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 01/02/2014 21:24:33 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted February 2, 2014 Author Share Posted February 2, 2014 Hey up Phil - get a grip mate - I've only just figured out how to get photographs basically in focus (most of the time). Don't coming along and asking me really difficult questions like that! I'm scared stiff to change anything on this camera now its basically working! Right today was a day spent on the tail end of things. First I bent up the metal connecting rod between the elevators. This was done out of 2.5mm wire - about as thick as I can bend without getting the wire bender out again! Here it all is fitted, epoxied and pinned down to make sure its flat,.. Next job was covering the tailplane. I'm using Antique Solartex. We always start with the underneath surface first - remember the golden rule of covering all final edges from overlaps should face down and backwards! So do the underneath first then overlap with the top. Here's the underneath,... Here's the top - with a cut away to glue on the fin. Its important that these cut aways are done with a really sharp knife so you don't have to press at all and hence reduce the risk of cutting into the underlying wood (a real no-no),... And the bottom, trimmed to provide a clean gluing area to fix the tailplane to the fuselage,.. Then the tailplane and fin can be joined - taking great care to ensure the joint is spot on at right angles,... So, once that is set we can fit that to the fuselage. Now, an introduction has to be made, met Jean-Claude the intrepid aviator who will fly the Dawn Flyer,... I rooted all through my spare pilots - those of about the right period were far too small or too big. Those about the right size were all in helmets and oxygen masks! So Jean-Claude is a new comer. He's just off to the local gentleman's outfitters to get himself kitted out in a fashion appropriate for period gentleman flier. BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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