Dai Fledermaus Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Fortunately, where I live there are a number of clubs available to me within a 30 to 40 min drive, some officially BMFA registered and a few others not. However, I was chatting to the chairman of one club who claimed that in another, high profile club in the area, I shall not name it, the club trainer/trainers charge learner flyers for their time. This is only a claim, I can't verify it, but I was surprised. Is this normal practice in your club? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simpson j Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 no at pandas it is free to all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim A Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Kind of goes against the spirit of the hobby I would of thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Hargreaves - Moderator Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Free where I fly.....sometimes students even get a smile thrown in too..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban8 Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 I have taught plenty of newcomers to fly over the years and never looked for payment, just a thank you. However, I don't see anything wrong with a 'pay as you learn system', providing it's run correctly and is operated in a manner that one would expect from any other service provider. In reality, I think it might be difficult to implement within a club environment. The reason I pulled back from teaching was because I was messed about by several newcomers who didn't appear to be taking things seriously (not turning up, not making required changes to the model etc) and generally were making what I always regarded as a pleasurable activity, a bit of a hassle! Perhaps if they'd had to cough up £15 per hour , they may have had second thoughts before wasting my time. I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bott - Moderator Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 If you charge for training, doesn't that make it a commercial activity? In which case, is the insurance affected at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essjay Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Posted by Chris Bott - Moderator on 24/09/2014 10:23:53: If you charge for training, doesn't that make it a commercial activity? In which case, is the insurance affected at all? I think you may be right Chris, however what about just claiming for incidental expenses eg, cost of fuel if you use instructors aircraft, travelling costs if you have to make specific journeys etc, not that I would want to charge at all. I reckon it should all be in the spirit of the hobby and non commercialised. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Fledermaus Posted September 24, 2014 Author Share Posted September 24, 2014 I guess clubs are free to decide their own rules, but it does seem to me, as Kiwikanfli has said, that it goes against the spirit of the hobby. The chap I was speaking to, who seemed well informed, said that the decision to charge learner flyers was made because the trainers weren't getting enough flying time of their own in. It might be due to the fact that it is a large and I imagine popular club attracting new recruits all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slopetrashuk Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 This was a hot topic for debate within the BMFA some years ago. If you go to a training school where you pay per hour a commercial insurance is required. However where a club charges for instruction (other than normal club membership which usually see's instruction given free) then the novice must pay the club who will then pay the instructor and different insurance extensions must be made.Personally - it was free to me and I give it freely but I can see the benefit of paying for an intensive course to learn a new skill or discipline (heli's etc) to shortcut if you are an existing flier with some familiarity.AndyEdited By Slopetrashuk on 24/09/2014 11:36:18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Jones Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Posted by Essjay on 24/09/2014 10:33:35: Posted by Chris Bott - Moderator on 24/09/2014 10:23:53: If you charge for training, doesn't that make it a commercial activity? In which case, is the insurance affected at all? I think you may be right Chris, however what about just claiming for incidental expenses eg, cost of fuel if you use instructors aircraft, travelling costs if you have to make specific journeys etc, not that I would want to charge at all. I reckon it should all be in the spirit of the hobby and non commercialised. Steve I don't charge but I understand the arguments for and against and do not hold any strong opinion one way or the other. On the subject of insurance, "Flying Training Cover The BMFA insurance policy contains indemnity cover for any member who accepts a fee for the teaching of R/C flying. This cover is only available for instruction carried out in the environment of a BMFA affiliated club and not in a commercial organisation. In all cases, other than those covered by the First Time Inexperienced Flyer provisions, both the instructor and the pupil must be BMFA members." Hope that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomtom39 Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Our club offers free tuition to Solo and Post solo if required ie on how to perform Aerobatics. We have two club trainers ie IC and electric . The solo test is not dis-similar to the BMFA A test . No charge is made for use of the equipment and or Instructors time - however the club does prefer new members to use their own models to learn on once basics (ie pre-solo) are mastered!. We also have a policy of allowing prospective members up to three visits and use of our trainers/instructors before they have to commit to joining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Engine Doctor Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Its free at our club Medway MFC . If we found that some one was charging for lessons they would be leaned on heavily or asked to leave . I was taught for free and have passed that on to many flyers over the years . Charging goes against the spirit of the hobby.I can see that intensive courses can be beneficial to some flyers and many are willing to pay . I have on one or two occasions since retiring from work been asked for week long intensive training sessions and been offered payment for time but have refused as its is a hobby and part of my fun is passing on "The knowledge". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 No, I think it would be a bad thing, we do get the odd member who thinks you should spend every waking moment being at his disposal though. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomtom39 Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Taking the point further from the comments made by Engine Doctor (and I agree with him on charging) - I was very fortunate that my other half bought me some vouchers for the Paul Heckles school and I found this to be of great help especially in helping me Iron out the odd bad habit that had creeped in (for my B test) I also attended one of their "Jet days" and have gone on to buy/fly my own Turbines with a greater degree of confidence. My own view (as a club Instructor) is that each beginner is different and I try and tailor a flying prog to suit them if possible. In very rare instances , I have suggested that they go for an Intensive "starter" course. The club is fortunate to have a number of Instructors and members are able to call on at least one if not more at each flying session. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Finch Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Well to me that says it all " pay as you learn ". In this world off stress and commerce I thought hobbies and clubs were a meeting place for like minded people to enjoy each other's company and to share interests and above all help and support. Pay as you learn should be advertised as a buisness and completely separate from clubs that are there for enjoyment. Earlier this year I wanted to get into this fantastic hobby and upon looking at a few clubs felt completely frustrated by response I got as a newbie and started to think the whole flying community could be a elite club. It seemed I could be seen as a annoyance as a learner and the inner circle was beyond reach. I put out a plea on here about clubs in the area that welcomed complete novices. Funtley Flyers contacted me and upon turning up at the field was welcomed with open arms. Support was all freely given and I was happily allocated as much time as I needed along with tuition help and advice. Result- after three months I am solo , loving every minute and have some great friends taboot. A club that welcomes, embraces beginners and is thriving. If something goes wrong you have spares thrust at you, advice freely given, help offered and friendship as standard. in these tough retail times for RC stores the net result from myself would be about £3000 spent on radio gear, models to fly and planes to build for future enjoyment. If we cut off the new blood before it starts we will see the stores close, less choice of models and less new exciting products. In short I feel clubs that do not embrace new starters are with other like minded clubs helping to strangle this wonderful community. lets hope these clubs if they exist are very limited in numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban8 Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Just playing devil's advocate...............but if I wanted to learn to play a musical instrument, I'd expect to pay a teacher. Why should model flying be any different? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben goodfellow 1 Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 in one of the clubs im in one bloke was charging for teaching but also for helping newbies to set planes up in my opinion disgusting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cymaz Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 wouldn't dream of our club charging for tuition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Finch Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 Hi Cuban8 yep a point but... if I payed to learn a instrument it would be me paying for private tuition to learn a skill in a solo environment. Clubs are a place to share skills and passions hence "club " . People club together for a common cause ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Miller Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 We don't charge in our club. Our secretary spends hours doing helicopter training and setting up. (No one else flies helicopters) Fixed wing instruction. is done on an ad hoc basis. I normally will do it as I have the buddy box set up on 35 Htz and I use my own model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon H Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 I am in charge of training at my club and training is all free as with most clubs. But we have made a choice to put the responsibility on the student the make sure things are in place. so its up to the student to arrange training with an instructor and everything that goes with it. If they need help then clearly it is on offer and our members will do anything they need, but if they do not ask for that help and come up with a model that cant fly 3 weeks in a row (having been given advice on how to fix it) then so be it. The point of this was to prevent all the instructors being inconvenienced week after week with models that are not airworthy and people who are not prepared to make the effort to even ask for help. It sounds draconian, but when they say 'I am ready' and the wing is not even on, the model is not fuelled and the engine not running, they haven't done the preflights....It wastes everyones time. If they say 'I don't know how to start my engine' then of course you show them, but once they know then its not up to the instructor any more as they have passed that part of training. The same is true for preflights etc and they are tested in this by secretly reversing channels on the buddy box to see if they spot it. If they don't then their first circuit is often quite a shock. Again this might seem severe, but they never make the mistake again and learn to really check and not just look at all the waggley bits. Since we introduced this a number of trainees have disappeared which is a shame on the face of it, but in reality if they lacked sufficient interest to ask for help and just wanted every handed to them on a plate then they were never going to get anywhere in the first place. Also on the other side of the coin we have a number of trainees that have progressed much faster than usual and have really taken charge of their flying as it is just that, their flying. They make the choices, they are in control both on the ground and in the air and some of our junior members who wouldn't say boo to a goose when they joined are now a real part of the club instead of standing at the back of the pits looking sheepish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken anderson. Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 in our club BVRMC at present we have a lad who takes peoples phone no's and gets in touch with them to arrange tuition...... at our site-he does it all in the spirit of getting them to the stage where they can land and take off on their own and do circuits safely...since I joined the club in 88/89 the new members have always depended on the existing members learning them the skills to fly model aircraft-and many have gone on to greater things.....I always point out to others that we have to pass on what we were learnt or we will have no club.....charging for the help has never come in to it-and hopefully never will...young ben goodfellow is one of the products of the club...we have at the min over 130 members..and our club and it is known for the friendly atmosphere that exists at our site....all run in their free time by a canny bunch of lads......on behalf of the members...... ken Anderson ne..1 ...BVRMC chairman and club member........dept.. Edited By ken anderson. on 25/09/2014 09:27:02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 No, our club does not charge. I think its very rare for a club to charge for training. As many have said, I was taught for free, model flying has given me an enormous amount of fun and pleasure (and continues to do so), so by instructing I feel I'm putting a bit back in for what it has given me. I have a lot of sympathy with comments about learners who don't seem to be committed to learning, turning up repeatedly unprepared or apparently refusing to take responsibility for their own learning. I do sometimes wonder if this is by-product of tuition being free? A sort of "if it costs nothing, it's worth nothing" attitude? But I still wouldn't change it. We can often tell quite early on which are the ones that are going to progress, get their A-cert and become independent - they are always keen to fly, get as much stick-time in as they can, often go from instructor to instructor so as to get more flights and are regular attenders at the field. We have a few (very few) learners who are regular attenders but don't progress. When you look at it they seem to be quite happy simply being taken up by an instructor on a buddy lead and allowed to fly circuits. When you suggest "OK let's move on, how about we try some figure 8's" they respond with "No its OK, I'll just do this!" Now if they were paying for this instruction I suspect their attitude would be very different. But they're not and they are quite happy doing what they do. Now you might say what's wrong with that? Well the problem is that they take up instructors time; given that the instructors want to fly their own models as well (at least some times!) that just means less instructing to go round. I'm not sure I know the answer to these issues, the uncommitted learner and the committed to being a learner for ever, but I'm pretty sure the solution does not lie in charging - or at least I would not like to see that solution applied in a club context. BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Carr Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 Was just about to post my clubs (Blyth Valley Radio Model Club's) position but Ken beat me to it. Just what Ken says really. We also provide out of club funds glow fuel for training, buddy box equipment, an Arising Star trainer and reimburse the lad for any out of pocket expenses (repairs etc) to keep the model in the air. No charges are made whatsoever but hats off to a couple of his pupils who voluntarily went out on their own volition and bought receiver's, fuel etc etc as a thank you to the Trainer and the Club for the help that was provided in getting them sorted. Craig Edited By Craig Carr on 25/09/2014 09:48:07 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuphedd Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 in this day of the ease of obtaining an ARTF , the hobby is prone to attacting "newbies " because its easy !! well it looks easy !! So I know a club that does charge BUT when the student gets his A his funds are refunded !! This puts a stop to time wasters ! and yes I am an instructor and no I/we dont charge BUT I choose my students ! cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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