Paul C. Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 To get to the bottom of these issues it might be worthwhile considering if we could list all reported loss of signal type issues (all manufacturers ) to try to identify if specific areas are more susceptible than others to interference. Some folks have no problems yet others have significantly more. Just for the record I currently use spektrum without any issues but if I lost confidence I would ditch it for another make without hesitation, no axe to grind just trying to help ☺ Paul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben goodfellow 1 Posted June 13, 2016 Author Share Posted June 13, 2016 i dont fly spektrum anymore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul C. Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 P'S, not trying to tick anyone off here just attempting to help but looks like things are getting a little tetchy at the moment. 😊😊😊 Be nice, Paul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben goodfellow 1 Posted June 13, 2016 Author Share Posted June 13, 2016 paul .. i think that would be a good idea ,, the problem would be honesty .i suspect there would be quite a bit fudging of numbers . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul C. Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 Ben, yes some would report what they honestly thought was signal loss but was really set up issues, finger failure etc. But may be we could get a picture of where the higher number of issues are occurring some of the mathematicians amongst us can factor out the error reports. Just think we need to do some thing practical to move forward or we will just keep going round and round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GARY SHEARS Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 come on guys no need for anyone to fall out with each other the forum is here to help fellow flyers looking around the internet and what people has said on here it's a wider problem then just at the blyth club now Spektrum does seem to be the leader in the race here at signal loss etc but as said above by Paul has anyone else had similar problems on futaba etc with 2.4 most people run 2.4 and the air waves are getting real crowded we are only trying to see whats effecting some models around the country Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hopkin Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 Gary as I said in an earlier post I have seen loss of control with Furaba, Spektrum and Taranis I personally have had extremely wet ground conditions cause continual "telemetry lost" alarms on my Taranis - but there will always be more Spektrum issues for two reasons a) They are a very common entry point into RC so a higher proportion of users will be inexperienced than other brands which tend to be second TX; b) The sheer number of them out there compared with other brands (a guess 40-50% of the average club flight line) so statistically more Spektrums will be attacked by rabid penguins or struck by lightening than other brands Edited By Dave Hopkin on 13/06/2016 22:13:01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 I have the impression that some believe that if the "fail safe" is set a model will not crash. I have been under the impression that the "fail safe" is not quite what the term implies. It does not mean that the system fails in such a way that the model will be safe, rather that the model should be set to ensure that the least risk will occur if the system fails, not necessarily safe, Most power fliers take the view that the minimum is that the model throttle is closed. This should prevent a fly away and normally ensures that the model will go to ground in the immediate locality. I am aware that not all modellers do set the "failsafe" to a closed throttle, just because they have not set the "fail safe".. I am also aware that some Rxs/txs (Futaba 6017 is one) only having failsafe on one channel, the throttle, the rest of the system remains at the last decodable position. If there were wide spread interference, i would not be surprised if all the models crashed. Could this only affect Spektrum equipment, it is possible. It could be that other manufacturers equipment is susceptible to a different form of interference, although I do not know that this is so. I personally do not have much faith that the failsafe will save a model, it is mainly a setting, which replicates what happens with most models when something fails. Best set, just because in theory, the outcome should be safer than relying on the model to just crash., which could be in the next county, although normally in the long grass, or other natural hazard that makes recovery difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul C. Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 Hi Erf, my take on 'fail safe' is that when engaged the motor would stop (ic low idle) thus reducing the speed of the model the end result is that it will hit the ground reasonably close to the pilot and at (hopefully) minimal speed. If the link between transmitter and receiver is not regained the end result will always be an encounter with tera firma 😱 I guess the closest to failsafe could be the e flight safe feature that aledgedly recovers an out of control model if you press the button in time) Paul ☺ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaunie Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 Fail safe as far as I am aware is merely to prevent a fly away. Closing the throttle will bring the model down close to the pilot and at minimum speed. I fly Spektrum with no problems, I have had one hold in six years of flying with my gear but flying a friends plane on a DX7S I had problems, the Tx was returned and after a new RF board was fine. However the last three radio problems my club has had to my knowledge were; repeated control loss with FrSky, the pilot lost and regained control several times resulting in a head-on with the Tarmac; Control loss as a result of a flat Rx battery, good job it wasn't Spektrum or you know where the blame would have placed; finally a friend had repeated loss of model memories, Spektrum? No, Futaba. I don't believe Spektrum is perfect and it seems to have had more than its fair share of RF board problems, but and its a big but, other brands have problems too. Btw, I'm not a Spektrum user of choice but I was given a brand new DX7 and it would have been rude not to use it. Shaunie Edited By Shaunie on 13/06/2016 23:21:22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kc Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 The point about failsafe is that these models crashed at full throttle while if the failsafe had been correctly set to low throttle ( as per BMFA & CAP658 rules) then in the event of signal loss the throttle would be at idle. It wasnt if they crashed at full throttle as reported. So it's not signal loss! Gary, if you gather information on the other crashes and post it here with the full details of your own then the forum members may come up with some explanation that will help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masher Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 I am not joining this discussion but KC, you cannot be allowed to get away with "The point about failsafe is that these models crashed at full throttle while if the failsafe had been correctly set to low throttle ( as per BMFA & CAP658 rules) then in the event of signal loss the throttle would be at idle. It wasnt if they crashed at full throttle as reported. So it's not signal loss!" I'm afraid nothing is as black & white as that! Failsafe is just one of our safety measures but don't be fooled into thinking it's perfect. It could, for example, be about...........wait for it.............timing! Do you know how Spektrum, in this case, implement their failsafe? Do you know how long it can be between updates worst case? My point is, there are many possibilities here and the real cause may never be known. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GARY SHEARS Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Posted by kc on 14/06/2016 09:42:14: The point about failsafe is that these models crashed at full throttle while if the failsafe had been correctly set to low throttle ( as per BMFA & CAP658 rules) then in the event of signal loss the throttle would be at idle. It wasn't if they crashed at full throttle as reported. So it's not signal loss! Gary, if you gather information on the other crashes and post it here with the full details of your own then the forum members may come up with some explanation that will help. As I say I have no idea if the fail safe's worked on the other models, But I do know everyone involved had a point in their flight where thay lost connection with the model too the point 4 crashed out of 5. My fail safe was setup correct and I test it from time to time. i think the real facts here are not about fail safe's but the fact some models lost signal, call it what you like when the tx and rx no longer talk to each other I would say that is a loss of signal. I've done a lot of searching since on the web and lots seem to report control loss around the world and i hate to say it but the vast amount turn out to be spektrum, but im not bashing Spektrum as there are other makes that i've come across to when looking. But maybes Spektrum is more susceptible to interference, or the fact could be there is a lot more Spektrum sets out there who knows I think this is something we may all experience from time to time as modern technology moves on. Edited By GARY SHEARS on 14/06/2016 12:04:33 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kc Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 If the failsafe was correctly set to idle throttle.then if your model 'went in' at full throttle it tells you that the signal from TX was not lost and that the crash was due to some other problem. It was not signal loss. Checking whether the other planes had the failsafe set to idle throttle yet crashed at full throttle will give further insight into the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Let's refer to it as loss of control and hopefully end any confusion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GARY SHEARS Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Posted by kc on 14/06/2016 14:20:55: If the failsafe was correctly set to idle throttle.Then if your model 'went in' at full throttle it tells you that the signal from TX was not lost and that the crash was due to some other problem. It was not signal loss. Checking whether the other planes had the failsafe set to idle throttle yet crashed at full throttle will give further insight into the problem. I'm not sure where you're coming from If the tx doesn't talk to the rx then from where im standing you would say the signal has gone between them Which means no control if the signal was there then we wouldn't have twisted up models. do you not believe that a piece of electronic equipment can fail and not do as its supposed to There was no planes involved that day only heli's and quads maybes there more susceptible at the end of the day their full of electronics' and carbon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Fry Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Gary, what was the time scale of your incident. Describe if you can what happened from being a happy bunny to disaster. With time scales. Also the machine went in a full throttle. Were you flying at full throttle or did it go to full without input from you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GARY SHEARS Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Hi Donald I was flying my trex 600 pro helicopter at the time, The reason it was at set throttle was because it was in idle up fixed head speed. Time wise the two quads that had a problem where earlier that day don't know exactly think it morning time Mine and the other two helis that had problems was later on in the day if i remember after 6pm was about two weeks ago on a sunny sunday. Edited By GARY SHEARS on 14/06/2016 16:44:23 Edited By GARY SHEARS on 14/06/2016 16:44:43 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Fry Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Gary, I am asking about your incident. Buy the bye I am a plank flyer, terms like idle up are a mystery to me. Put another way, what happened, with time scales, and did the moter change its power consumption without input from you when you realised you were no longer flying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban8 Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 I think what we're getting at here is the duration i.e less than a second/second/couple of seconds between losing control and the models hitting the deck. I believe we've established that it'll take a second between hold i.e loss of control and F/S bringing the throttle to minimum from IU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GARY SHEARS Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Hi sorry there Donald Idle up on a helicopter fixes the head speed so it then allows you to move your collective stick to change the blade pitch to fly inverted without killing the power. i.e. if you where not in idle up and pulled the collective stick back it would kill the motor and crash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hopkin Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Garey what I think you are missing here is a follows: Failsafe is best considered as a spring loaded trapdoor that is held open as long as the TX/RX link is maintained should the RX fail too "see" what it recognises as a TX signal and the RX has power it will activate failsafe and power the motor down The implication of that is that, if your helo went out of control but it did not power the motor down then the RX did not loose signal - but there was some other form of control loss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 A question for electric heli flyers - if the throttle channel goes into failsafe, is there an immediate effect? Energy stored in the rotor system will keep the blades rotating for an appreciable time...in other words, how quickly would you become aware of a throttle failsafe kicking in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GARY SHEARS Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Posted by Martin Harris on 14/06/2016 18:05:25: A question for electric heli flyers - if the throttle channel goes into failsafe, is there an immediate effect? Energy stored in the rotor system will keep the blades rotating for an appreciable time...in other words, how quickly would you become aware of a throttle failsafe kicking in? it would be the same as a plane you would know straight away as the heli would try and drop out the sky then you would have to perform a autorotation. getting back to the main part is what sort of signals is acting up with our 2.4 systems control loss signal loss its all much the same thing if you no longer can control a model Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyB Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Posted by GARY SHEARS on 14/06/2016 18:20:11: getting back to the main part is what sort of signals is acting up with our 2.4 systems control loss signal loss its all much the same thing if you no longer can control a model Maybe in terms of the painful outcome they are not, but if you are trying to diagnose and eliminate the root cause of this issue they definitely need to be treated separately. Yes there could have been a loss of signal between TX and RX, but if that were the case failsafe would normally have been triggered which it does not seem to have been. That would tend to point to the issue being somewhere in the model itself downstream of the RX - power supply is the normal culprit (though in this instance I agree it is highly unlikely given your Ultra Guard install), but it could also be a servo wire, servo, linkage, or other mechanical component. Put simply whilst LOS is definitely a possibility so are other things, so if you really want to get back confidence in your gear you are going to need to take a scientific approach and do some structured testing as I suggested in an earlier post; speculation will not get to the root cause. Edited By MattyB on 14/06/2016 18:39:02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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