Hawker Hunter crashed at shoreham airshow

[J D 8]

Posted by Jon Harper on 25/08/2015 19:13:06:

some area's of the media are getting it right

**LINK**

Thanks for that Jon,at least we have one sensible paper left, what other have been reporting is inaccurate scaremongering.

[Tony F]

I was going over my old photo's from last year as I attended then. Looking at the pictures the height of his first pass was higher but the apex of the loop seemed similar and he also did the slight turn at the top that was witnessed here. Not all maneuvers involved the use of flaps, The high speed barrel didn't but most others did. Wonder if it was the same pilot last year because it was the same hunter.

Tony

[Don Fry]

Sorry lads, I already have a roomful of extinguishers round me, so fire away, but reading the above link makes me think of a PR man for the industry. All is not right in the industry. The people on the A 27 did not sign up to any sort of risk assessment. And by the way I am not your enemy.

[ChrisB]

Thanks for that Geoff, I live about 15 minutes from Stamford Hall where Percy Piltcher crashed his glider, just a few years ago!

Superb article in the Telegraph, at least someones got it right.

[Jon H]

He was flying a quarter clover which is basically a loop where your exit heading is 90 degrees off your entry heading.

Donald, no one is for a moment suggesting that the people on the A27 deserved it or were even aware of the danger. But, the odds of being hit are astronomical. Aircraft fly over roads every day, spend 10 minutes at jct 15 of the M25 and see how many aircraft land over the road. Clearly aerobatics are another story but when you look at the width of the road vs the size of the hunter, and consider the size of the area he was flying over the odds really are massive.

That said, if he was using that road as a visual reference for the display and was flying along it deliberately then that is something that probably ought to be changed.

[Tony F]

Hi Donald, Are we talking the airshow industry? Personally I think the way shows are handled are very safe, personal opinion. When people have accidents on the road, air, train or ship I don't think they sign up for "Risk Assessment" either. And I don't think you're the enemy mate. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

This was an accident. I was at Ramstein. Pilot error on that one yes. But still an accident. And look at the rule changes after that. I think Airshows as we know and love them are coming to an end. My opinion.

Tony

[Tony Richardson]

Posted by Jon Harper on 25/08/2015 20:07:09

Donald, no one is for a moment suggesting that the people on the A27 deserved it or were even aware of the danger. But, the odds of being hit are astronomical. Aircraft fly over roads every day, spend 10 minutes at jct 15 of the M25 and see how many aircraft land over the road. Clearly aerobatics are another story but when you look at the width of the road vs the size of the hunter, and consider the size of the area he was flying over the odds really are massive.

That said, if he was using that road as a visual reference for the display and was flying along it deliberately then that is something that probably ought to be changed.

Thank you Jon wish I had put it that way.

My point still is, we all do things every day that involve a higher risk than flying or visiting airshows and do not for one minute give it a second thought, my problem here is the way these things are covered by the media, and I believe only because they are so infrequent.

[ChrisB]

I agree with Tony. Car accidents are very common, obviously because of the number of vehicles and the risk of accidents. They are so common that they are 'accepted' as a day to day occurence whereas plane crashes are rare and because of that they become significant events. We all know the stats show that flying is safer than any other form of transport and when you consider the number of take-offs at all the airshows in the country vs the number of incidents, be they minor or major its a very very small proportion.

[kc]

Todays film on ITV News of the Hunter taking off " from Essex " beforehand and using almost the entire length of the runway ( North Weald ?) may well prove significant as ITV suggested it was an unusally long takeoff run.

My view of the all the videos I have seen is that the pilot very nearly got it onto open ground but failed by a very narrow margin. Almost averted disaster but failed by such a small but crucial distance. Tragic.

[Tony F]

Blimey kc, That is a long take off run ! Doesn't even sound like he's at full power ?

Tony

[Bill_B]

It's up to the pilot how long his take off run is, he doesn't have to do a combat run. Also, if the pilot thought that his engine was down for power, or there was something not quite right with the plane, do you honestly think he'd have continued? I think you'll find the answer to that is a most emphatic NO!

ITV need to wind their necks in, they're just clutching at straws, as is the rest of the sad media and gutter press.

[Keith Simmons]

I agree that the pilot can chose his power setting as he may be required to extend engine life and that the Vulcans had their engine limiters removed when going to Falklands War.

[Bob Cotsford]

'50s single engine jet? Of course it's a long take-off run, it's not a twin engined Lightning on reheat! Had he dragged it off the ground in an attempt to make the take-off more of a spectacle, then he would have been guilty of reckless flying in my view. All he did was treat the old girl with the respect due to her primitive technology and her age.

[ChrisB]

It does seem a long run, but then as others have said, engine management is very common, as is using the available runway. I was a hot and humid day, so engine power may have been affected and was it a cross wind? In which case this may also increase the run.

Hunters and the like aren't like modern jets like the Typhoon, the don't have massive reserves of power, nor are they computer controlled. 

As i often tell newbys, get the plane to flying speed on the ground, don't haul it off, use the runway, thats what its there for.

As usual its the idiot media with no understanding of the subject.

 

CB

Edited By ChrisB on 27/08/2015 10:59:28

[Cuban8]

Makes you wonder who the 'expert' was that expressed the concern to ITV in the first place. I've seen that Hunter fly from NW on a number of occasions and the take off run in the film didn't look or sound abnormal compared to what I've watched in the past.

The wife and I stayed late at the end of Wings and Wheels to see it return from a show. I've always thought the Hawker Hunter to be the most beautiful aeroplane ever to take to the sky and it's still hard to take in what's happened.

[kc]

I didnt realise that was the same Hunter that returned to N Weald at the end of Wings & Wheels Saturday ( I was also one of the very small proportion of visitors who stayed to the very end to see this beautiful plane land )

The most beautiful jet becomes the most hideous carnage......

[Erfolg]

I am a little surprised at the contempt that the media seems to be held. We may quibble at the exactness that technical or operational terminology and practises are expressed. Yet, what ever we may suspect, what has happened is to present the impressions of observers and the technical views of generally informed professionals. We may not like the views expressed, conclusions reached, although some may be valid

Without the media the film footage that has come into both the official and public domain in many cases would remain unknown, as to the many and varied witnesses.

The latest video has suggested a flame out, at the top of the loop, where a large bright of flame can apparently be seen. This has been interpreted as a possibility according to Julian Bray.

Just as other modellers I really do feel for all those unfortunately killed and injured. Perhaps particularly that these events are so close to my interests. For me it is a balance between safety and pleasure, I enjoy the spectacle of all flight, but fear that this event will reduce, perhaps significantly the spectacle that will be permitted in future. A lot will depend on what risk is acceptable, as risk can never be removed completely, other by doing nothing, even then the risks often just change.

[Bill_B]

Flame out? Julian Who? This is exactly why the media, gutter press and self important 'experts' are held in such contempt. Their constant verbal garbage is simply staggering, and it's not just about this appalling tragedy either. They ply their wretched trade to other too news items too. They should be ashamed.

[Erfolg]

Bill how can you be so sure that the suggestion is untrue? I am still at a loss what makes the statement of this opinion as gutter press etc.

I have now had a look at the video. there are certainly some flashes from aircraft, as to what they are, well I bow to those with greater knowledge.

[Tony F]

That was looked at over at P Prune. Was well in the foreground and is a bird or some other such thing. But did not come out of the hunter.

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/566536-hawker-hunter-down-shoreham-13.html

Tony

Edited By Tony F on 27/08/2015 13:59:26

[Mowerman]

That oft quoted saying by an American 'News Mogul' still applies -

"Never let the facts get in the way of a good story"

[John Privett]

Posted by Cuban8 on 27/08/2015 10:38:06:

I've always thought the Hawker Hunter to be the most beautiful aeroplane ever to take to the sky and it's still hard to take in what's happened.

Agreed 100%

[John Privett]

The "flash" has been described in the press as being orange, despite actually appearing as white on the video - most likely a seagull. Mowerman's quote is particularly valid here...

And as I said elsewhere yesterday, if that flash was for real it would have been seen by half the population of Brighton, never mind the 20,000 spectators at the show. And why does it not appear on any of the (many) other videos?

[ChrisB]

I've watched several of the poorly shot videos and the only thing I can see is a possible vortex coming somewhere from the aircraft. One video described it as fuel spray from the RH drop tank...highly unlikely and very faint.

Edited By ChrisB on 27/08/2015 21:28:30

[Mark a]

It was indeed a black day for British aviation and condolences to all those affected. I worked on Hunter WV318 for a couple of years when helping set up Delta jets at Kemble so know the workings of the aircraft quite well. To me after watching the numerous video's of the tragic event the aircraft seems to be low on energy and a little low at the top of the loop. I couldn't see or hear any evidence of an engine surge or a flame out as the engine can be heard running just before impact but it doesn't seem to have throttled up at the lower part of the loop which I thought it would have. We can all speculate until the cows come home but we will have to wait until the AAIB find out what went wrong.