BMFA News - Achievement Scheme Mandatory Questions

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

My initial thoughts were that some of the questions are more pertinent to FPV/SUSA test candidates. I would imagine most examiners would pitch the questions appropriately and not just pick 5 at random.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Guys - how about injecting a bit of common sense into all this? Just take a look at what is actually required. There are only 4 articles of the ANO you really need to know: 137, 138, 166 & 167. All together that amounts to 522 words - it will fit on one side of A4 paper! Its hardly an onerous task! Comparisons with memorising the entire Road Traffic Act or even the Higway Code are a bit silly, let's be honest!

You should know this anyway - I my opinion anyone who operates a R/C aircraft and doesn't know these 522 words could be described as irresponsible.

BEB

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Not read it through and digested it all yet, but at first glance I don't see much to fret about, I do not have an eidetic memory and I don't reckon BMFA expects Examiners to, things I use on a daily basis lodge and stay there, I don't do tests on a daily basis, so this'll call for a bit of a crib sheet to help me remember, no big deal.

John

[John Privett]

BEB, yes it is common sense essential that we should all know that;

‘A person must not recklessly or negligently cause or permit an aircraft to endanger any person or property’

and that;‘

'A person must not recklessly or negligently act in a manner likely to endanger an aircraft, or any person in an aircraft’

(plus of course the other 2 relevant ANO's)

But is there any value at all in knowing that one of those (which one?) is ANO 137 and the other is ANO 138? Especially as the numbers change from time to time. When I took my A test ANO 137 was 73 and ANO 138 was 74. ANO 166 was 94.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Absolutely agree, John. I remember one of my managers at w*rk (happily a rapidly receding memory!!) telling me how he'd gained a Cisco networking qualification as it was seen to be a "good thing" for his career prospects. He cheerfully admitted that he'd simply learned the answers and wouldn't have the first idea how to apply any of his certified "knowledge"...

[Matt Jones]

Well what can I say? Had a thumb through last night and it went straight for recycling without stopping to read any articles. What utter rubbish. Quite why we need so many / such large articles on heavy lift comps and free flight is beyond me, seemed like page filling to me.

I'd still happy pay a reduced sub and not have the magazine.

[graeme jones]

BEB - you might think I'm irresponsible, I don't.

I think it's time the BMFA came clean and admitted that what started as a scheme to improve flying standards on a personal, voluntary basis, is now a licence to fly. Some of these new questions would be more appropriate to a Police promotion exam. than a hobby.

Graeme

[Bob Burton]

Posted by John Privett on 02/02/2016 00:12:10:

BEB, yes it is common sense essential that we should all know that;

‘A person must not recklessly or negligently cause or permit an aircraft to endanger any person or property’

and that;‘

'A person must not recklessly or negligently act in a manner likely to endanger an aircraft, or any person in an aircraft’

(plus of course the other 2 relevant ANO's)

But is there any value at all in knowing that one of those (which one?) is ANO 137 and the other is ANO 138?

No value whatsoever.

[Andy Palmer]

Posted by Matt Jones on 02/02/2016 06:25:19:
Well what can I say? Had a thumb through last night and it went straight for recycling without stopping to read any articles. What utter rubbish. Quite why we need so many / such large articles on heavy lift comps and free flight is beyond me, seemed like page filling to me.

I'd still happy pay a reduced sub and not have the magazine.

So you didn't read any of the articles but it's utter rubbish. OK...

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by graeme jones on 02/02/2016 07:26:52:

BEB - you might think I'm irresponsible, I don't.

I think it's time the BMFA came clean and admitted that what started as a scheme to improve flying standards on a personal, voluntary basis, is now a licence to fly. Some of these new questions would be more appropriate to a Police promotion exam. than a hobby.

Graeme

Forget the politics of the A-cert Graeme. What I am saying is: If you don't know those four clauses of the ANO (which is the law - not politics) and you fly R/C aircraft then frankly - yes I believe you are irresponsible.

My point is I bet you do know them - so whats the problem?

Are we really saying that learning a 3 digit number is beyond most flyers - sheesh!

BEB

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by graeme jones on 02/02/2016 07:26:52:

BEB - you might think I'm irresponsible, I don't.

I think it's time the BMFA came clean and admitted that what started as a scheme to improve flying standards on a personal, voluntary basis, is now a licence to fly. Some of these new questions would be more appropriate to a Police promotion exam. than a hobby.

Graeme

You may well be proved right in time,but it's clubs that have adopted the scheme as a portable and defined indication of competence. Surely a voluntary and free scheme is better than the more formal regulation that may be enforced if EASA/CAA don't feel that the hobby is self-regulating effectively. I see the inclusion of these questions as a well intentioned attempt to demonstrate this.

As for those who couldn't find anything of interest in the latest magazine - words (acceptable within this forum) fail me!

[ken anderson.]

they'll be bringing out the full size driving test for model cars shortly-you heard it here first........god help any clubs that insist on a member having an A cert.... ...

ken anderson...ne....1....... club examiner/BVRMC....DEPT.

[PatMc]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 02/02/2016 10:32:52:

Posted by graeme jones on 02/02/2016 07:26:52:

BEB - you might think I'm irresponsible, I don't.

I think it's time the BMFA came clean and admitted that what started as a scheme to improve flying standards on a personal, voluntary basis, is now a licence to fly. Some of these new questions would be more appropriate to a Police promotion exam. than a hobby.

Graeme

Forget the politics of the A-cert Graeme. What I am saying is: If you don't know those four clauses of the ANO (which is the law - not politics) and you fly R/C aircraft then frankly - yes I believe you are irresponsible.

My point is I bet you do know them - so whats the problem?

Are we really saying that learning a 3 digit number is beyond most flyers - sheesh!

BEB

Knowing what the relevant contents of the ANO (& what they actually mean) is one thing.
Being expected to memorise 3 digit numbers is nonsensical. Pointing out that they can be found via the BMFA Handbook should suffice.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

OK, its obviously just me that thinks that learning four 3-digit numbers and the content of 522 words on one side of A4 is not a big deal. I must be smarter than I thought - I assumed anyone could do that without much difficulty. Clearly I was wrong.

BEB

[Glyn44]

Very interesting arguments/points of view from all sides. The one thing I have thought of, not mentioned here, is the inclusion of your club rules. Surely they have some part to play in the safety and good behaviour whilst flying at your field. My club has a not insubstantial set of rules which are sensible and relevant to all our members.

Maybe I'll check with our examiner to see if they are included as well.

[GONZO]

So, does my PPL + IMC + Night Flying and my hang gliding licence(self regulated) give me exemption from these requirements or is the A cert I got back in April 1980 more appropriate? BTW I bet the kids flying their kites on the beach have no idea about any ANO regs but I guess they should have. Training scheme and licence for flying a kite anyone? We play with toy aeroplanes, so its best to keep it as simple and lightly controlled as possible otherwise you make a rod for your own back. You can be sure that some one will pick it up and beat you with at some time in the future.

But, so saying, I think most of the discussions about what may or may not happen are irrelavent because the powers that be will impose whatever they see fit to suit their agenda. Bit by bit by stealth. If you look at the Irish requirements once your model goes over 4kg you have to pass an IAA approved training course at an IAA approved training establishment(££££ and there appears to be no distinction between the hobby flyer or commercial flyer. Is this the future, sooner or later, for this hobby?

Edited By GONZO on 02/02/2016 11:33:50

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Glyn44 on 02/02/2016 11:30:13:

Very interesting arguments/points of view from all sides. The one thing I have thought of, not mentioned here, is the inclusion of your club rules. Surely they have some part to play in the safety and good behaviour whilst flying at your field. My club has a not insubstantial set of rules which are sensible and relevant to all our members.

Maybe I'll check with our examiner to see if they are included as well.

 

Questions on local rules and procedures have always been included in the range of questions for tests.

Edited By Martin Harris on 02/02/2016 11:49:57

[John F]

It is more down to progress and a realisation that some things need to change to be more safety orientated.

Yes, we play with toy aeroplanes, but that is disregarding and downgrading the item and not really acknolwedging that the device is a dangerous one if not treated with respect and therefore is operated within certain guidelines, rules or laws.

There are reasons that are carefully considered before they are implemented so that safety is maintained.

It is interesting to note that people are apprehensive of more rules that might govern our hobby and typical knee jerk reactions based on rumour are displayed but will happily will take a compulsory A Cert if they wish to fly an aircraft in an aerobatic display in front of an audience.

Edited By John F on 02/02/2016 12:05:47

[ceejay]

Posted by Matt Jones on 02/02/2016 06:25:19:
Well what can I say? Had a thumb through last night and it went straight for recycling without stopping to read any articles. What utter rubbish. Quite why we need so many / such large articles on heavy lift comps and free flight is beyond me, seemed like page filling to me.

I'd still happy pay a reduced sub and not have the magazine.

quite poss the most narrow minded post ever, the BMFA represents ALL model flyers, not just your interests, as for the lift challenges, these are organised run and promoted by the BMFA so why would they not report on them, this competition is now global with teams traveling from as far away as China,

its this narrow minded, stick your head in the sand attitude that keeps this hobby down,

cj

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by GONZO on 02/02/2016 11:31:27:

So, does my PPL + IMC + Night Flying and my hang gliding licence(self regulated) give me exemption from these requirements or is the A cert I got back in April 1980 more appropriate? BTW I bet the kids flying their kites on the beach have no idea about any ANO regs but I guess they should have. Training scheme and licence for flying a kite anyone? We play with toy aeroplanes, so its best to keep it as simple and lightly controlled as possible otherwise you make a rod for your own back. You can be sure that some one will pick it up and beat you with at some time in the future.

But, so saying, I think most of the discussions about what may or may not happen are irrelavent because the powers that be will impose whatever they see fit to suit their agenda. Bit by bit by stealth. If you look at the Irish requirements once your model goes over 4kg you have to pass an IAA approved training course at an IAA approved training establishment(££££ and there appears to be no distinction between the hobby flyer or commercial flyer. Is this the future, sooner or later, for this hobby?

Edited By GONZO on 02/02/2016 11:33:50

In all likelihood sooner - if the hobby isn't seen to be doing something positive.

Your other qualifications certainly give you an awareness of the ANO - but are you saying that you think all model flyers should gain a PPL or similar if they have a long-standing A?

Yes, we play with toys, but those toys are associated with the anti-social and irresponsible, if not criminally insane, behaviour of a minority of FPV and "drone" flyers who have easy access to equipment that, in some cases, lets them fly successfully with little or no training. As the major representative of a responsible hobby, it seems very sensible to me that the BMFA is proactively expanding the content of its voluntary test scheme to encompass the probable forthcoming legislation that is being actively discussed at national and European legislation level.

Edited By Martin Harris on 02/02/2016 11:59:49

[Bob Burton]

I wonder if there are any figures available for the number of people taking the A, B, C tests for a period, say a recent year. I am willing to bet that the numbers will reduce when these new questions are introduced, not necessarily because they are difficult to answer, but because they appear much more daunting than the current requirements.

It would be interesting if the certification slate were wiped clean and everybody had to take the tests again to the current standards, or how about a yearly test to current standards ? I suspect that if either of these were introduced then attitudes would be different amongst established flyers.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Been thread after thread of doom and gloom and calls for the BMFA to do this that and the other, also been said that we're good lads/lasses and we behave and abide by the rules so leave us alone please, and also to distance ourselves from the bad uns, the very first tweak the BMFA brings forward gets a negative response from some. My opinion is, as well as the BMFA fighting our corner WE will have to make an effort as well to preserve what we have, may be even more pressure come on us in future years, best we get to grips with the changing times now for me. Or we could just bury our heads in the sand and hope it go's away, you think that likely ?

John

Edited By john stones 1 on 02/02/2016 12:10:15

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Bob,

I suspect that the vast majority of candidates are from clubs which require an A to fly at their sites so numbers shouldn't reduce dramatically. As to retesting, I think this is a subject that has been discussed previously and found to be unreasonably demanding on clubs, members and the scheme - after all, it's entirely voluntary and clubs that adopt it as a "licence" should be perfectly capable of monitoring their pilots' performance - there is a mechanism within the scheme to withdraw the rating if absolutely necessary.

As an examiner. I intend to incorporate these "set" questions into my testing once they are officially rolled out but I will be using those questions that I feel are relevant to the test I'm conducting and demonstrate proper awareness of the ANO and its important requirements. This is not much more than I do already - I think all tests I've done have included a couple of these anyway!

Edited By Martin Harris on 02/02/2016 12:17:17

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Well said, John.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by john stones 1 on 02/02/2016 12:08:47:

Been thread after thread of doom and gloom and calls for the BMFA to do this that and the other, also been said that we're good lads/lasses and we behave and abide by the rules so leave us alone please, and also to distance ourselves from the bad uns, the very first tweak the BMFA brings forward gets a negative response from some. My opinion is, as well as the BMFA fighting our corner WE will have to make an effort as well to preserve what we have, may be even more pressure come on us in future years, best we get to grips with the changing times now for me. Or we could just bury our heads in the sand and hope it go's away, you think that likely ?

John

Edited By john stones 1 on 02/02/2016 12:10:15

BEB