Kit builders, what would you like???

[Don Fry]

Richard, I admire and agree totally with you, your thoughts and your sentiments. But, despite the poetry of your post, Platt you will never be.

I now have a mindworm burrowing, of a bloke on the other side of the counter, having spilt his beans, swigging a pint of whisky. I am sober. I will now have to stay sober. Because that is a mindworm to be avoided when inebriated.

P.S. the spell checker on this I pad questions if I can spell whisky, and inebriated. I think I know how to do important words.

Also for Platt, read Plath. Spellcheckers can die. And we worry about AI's.

Edited By Donald Fry on 05/08/2017 17:04:38

[Colin Leighfield]

I suppose that although we have a lot of enthusiastic threads in the forum the truth is that the numbers of modellers prepared to build from kits who are represented here is still very small from a marketing point of view. I cannot believe that there are not a lot more who would buy and build these if they were truly aware of their availability. A feature on building the 110 in RCME might not go amiss, I don't recall seeing anything in there?

It certainly isn't easy and respect to you for what you have done. My personal concern now is finishing the Chipmunk so I can get onto the Spitfire. That must be completed before I commenced building a Fury! I've also got the Supermarine 317 project lurking and I must do that some time.

[Jon H]

Like most I have a stockpile of models to build and I think our hoarding nature could be part of the problem. We all buy loads of models then quite often don't do anything with them for many years if at all. I see it with our engines as well. Very often customers will not use our engines for years after they buy them, and even now engines bought in the 80's crop up brand new in their boxes. I cant get my head round that, but as I have a stockpile of kits I should probably understand it better than I do.

In any event, a kit manufacturer could be forgiven for thinking that each kit sold could sell 2 more as people will see it and want one. Given that many of the kits have been squirreled away in the loft for years i wonder if the exposure just is not there and this harms sales

 

Edited By Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 05/08/2017 17:34:03

[Joakim Karlsson 1]

This might come across as a bit mean and a bit harsh. But I just want to give you some insight from a non UK perspective.
I live in Sweden and got started with rc airplanes just when the electric side started to flourish and GWS started to pump out foam planes.
After the first year I wanted to build something, and I wanted to build a warbird. I made several searches on the internet and just by pure accident I stumbled on a build thread of the La7.
I then continued to ask around if anyone had built a kit from this company known as Warbird Replica. But no one around here had ever heard about these kits.
I took the plunge and bought one, and was very happy I did. It was my first build and it went through several catastrophes and builder errors.
It came out on the heavy side, I had a lot of trouble with the engine overheating and the paint started to fall off after a while. All of it my fault(s)
Some years later I actually got a job at a hobbystore, and unfortunately got a bit sick and tired of looking at rc airplanes all day long, especially ARF's. But that is what sold...

Some years a go the store closed down because we couldn't compete with Hobbyking and such. And I got back into the hobby again.
I thought I would give that La7 another go, made a search and found out that Warbird Replica had a new webpage, good stuff! But the La7 was not in stock...
I e-mailed Richard and asked about when it would be back in stock, but he couldn't give me a specific date.
One day I stumbled upon the page again and there was some new listings for BF-110 parts.
I started to search around and found out that I had totally missed the train again

Then I found this forum and got on the list of customers to sign up for another batch of the larger La7, this time I wouldn't miss that damn plane again!

Still when I ask around and mentions Warbird Replica, no one here have heard of the company.

Now with that long and winding road here comes the harsh and mean part...
If you want to sell your wares people need to see that you exists and that you have goods to deliver.
The new webpage is great, but it gives very little information on whats going on (IMHO). If there was a link to threads like this and the other listings for people who wanted to buy planes that wasn't even listed on the webpage.
Also, reconsider the name. Its not very searchable, a lot of full scale stuff shows up as well. Now that in itself can be nice, but it doesn't do you any favours.
And too sell, things need to be in stock, the "new generation" loose interest very quickly if they can't order on the spot and get their stuff in a couple of days.

How to solve this? I don't know.
But if we got some build threads going on the larger forums that would generate some traffic to the webstore for sure.
And I really do believe that these kind of kits are really up "the new generations" alley. Its a quick build and it needs to be proven!

[Pete H]

I tend to agree with Joakim.

Stock is needed to be able to sell.

Sites like this can generate traffic fellow flyers can see the models at the field but if when they visit the website they cannot buy the kits they will quickly move on to something else.

I brought one of the last of the smaller La7's. Why? Because it was one of two models in stock and I didn't want a Mustang. If it was out of stock I would have moved on and brought elsewhere.

[RICHARD WILLS]

I agree with both your comments . Normal business rules make absolute sense in the normal world but only apply if we assume there is an end user .

A few years ago we did stock everything . But what was happening was that I would buy in a load of 109s or Hurricanes and take a year to sell six . That is not viable since it eats up capital and storage ,

We rarely run out of Spitfires but have only sold two this week and previously had a dry spell of five weeks .

And that is despite everyone raving about the Spitfire they bought.

We have evolved into our current state , but were once somewhere else . That is why we built to petition.

[Graham R]

I will be looking for single engine next time. I would really like a Fokker 190d or a bf109. What do you fancy producing Richard? I am sure there will be support for you again.

Both Graham and green Graham

[Joakim Karlsson 1]

Another thing, that I don't like to admit, is that people are scared of warbirds.
No matter how good they fly, they still have that bad reputation.

Actually something I'm missing in my hangar is a trainer, thats not a trainer
Something that I can always bring to the field just to fly. It doesn't have to be scale. Just easy maintenance. A back to the roots kind of plane.
Similar to the Stick planes with a bit more finesse perhaps (aka canopy), optional flaps.
And in the future a twin version!

The older gents at my field are scared to death of warbirds. Their eyesight and reflexes aren't that good anymore. And many are just goofing around with Fun Cubs.
They could use a building project for the winter

[Geoff S]

I must admit that I only bought a Hurricane kit right now (well a month or two ago) from Richard because I knew the chances of getting one when I was actually ready to build it were slim. I reasoned to myself (and my wife ) that it was as good as money in the bank because of the limited supply!

I was originally going to tread down my usual path these days of converting it to electric but, what with John Harper harping on and on and on about how wonderful Laser engines are and lots of others fawning over their extreme lovliness, I decided to acquire my first glow engine for some years - a second hand but unrun 80 just a few months old. And if looks are anything to go by everyone's right.

So I may fall into both categories ... a kit and Laser hoarder but the years are piling on and I thought I ought to have a Laser powered model before it's too late

Of course there's the small matter of completing my Mew Gull and then there's the Cirrus Moth and the Dennis Bryant SE5a ... phew!

Geoff

[RICHARD WILLS]

All of your comments are valid chaps . I do not intend to shoot you down . I will also bear in mind that you have not been privvy to the amount of input from both trade and customer I have received over the years . I have also experimented with magazines , both reviews and adverts , (as have my contempories) The fact they no longer exist may tell you how effectiive that was.

The big question is not "how will Warbirds Replicas survive ?" That is a side show .

The big question is how will kit builders survive if no new kit builders join the gang ? A bit like the Welsh language .

The solution lies in another question : How do we get more people to try building and what is stopping them ?

Richard

[Chris Walby]

JK, is that not the point "The older gents at my field are scared to death of warbirds. Their eyesight and reflexes aren't that good anymore. And many are just goofing around with Fun Cubs."

If you are trying to sell WW2 war birds then the audience is aging and getting smaller by the year.

So where are the youngsters? Does any club have a demographic that is not getting older?

PZ produced foamy war birds with all the bad traits ironed out and they will fly in almost any weather, why because the investment is low if something goes wrong, but are they rewarding to fly...well not very exciting in my book.

My answer - its the youngsters we need, but the complicated part is how we get them into the hobby, but if we do nothing then it ends with us...

And sing Monty Pythons - Always look on the bright side of life........

[onetenor]

The problem I have with kits is I can't afford them .Wonderful as they are I couldn't convince my wife that they are not a waste of money.She already thinks a few sticks of balsa too expensive and likewise Depron. Also she considers I have enough planes already. However I do have to agree though regarding kit prices . I have 2 foamies ARTF.One I won in Dominic's draw and the other from Bang Good. Both are trainer types A Cessna 128 and a lakes.bush plane Not able to fly just now as I'm waiting for new hips and confined to a riser recliner chair. Hopefully done soon.

[David Davis]

Posted by Chris Walby on 05/08/2017 22:42:22:

JK, is that not the point "The older gents at my field are scared to death of warbirds. Their eyesight and reflexes aren't that good anymore. And many are just goofing around with Fun Cubs."

If you are trying to sell WW2 war birds then the audience is aging and getting smaller by the year.

Yeah. Maybe we should stick to WW1 stuff!

[Daren Graham - Cambria Funfighters]

The problem as always is still people's awareness of your business (not just yours). This is an incredibly difficult thing to acheive in our hobby. By rights I should by now be able to sit back and assume that everybody knows the business and as and when required will come and buy stuff . Sadly that won't happen. Constant striving to get your name out there is the only way and still people confuse us with the other company . This however is not about us. The point I am making is that JK's post could not be more valid. I had a very well known modeller who has been in the industry for a long time proudly announce that he'd bought 4 kits off me following one of our displays. He had of course bought the other sort.

Absolutely the only way to get sales for your company is to be out there getting known and not just at warbird meetings but everywhere possible and particularly the shows. This can be done for free and now couldnt be a better time as shows are crying out for something new to entertain the crowd. Just being there opens up so many possibilities for your business.

[Jon H]

Posted by onetenor on 06/08/2017 05:31:06:

The problem I have with kits is I can't afford them .Wonderful as they are I couldn't convince my wife that they are not a waste of money.She already thinks a few sticks of balsa too expensive and likewise Depron. Also she considers I have enough planes already. However I do have to agree though regarding kit prices . I have 2 foamies ARTF.One I won in Dominic's draw and the other from Bang Good. Both are trainer types A Cessna 128 and a lakes.bush plane Not able to fly just now as I'm waiting for new hips and confined to a riser recliner chair. Hopefully done soon.

This post was quite interesting to me for a number of reasons but mostly because there is a comparison being made between mass produced plastic stuff from China and a locally produced quality kit. The two are not really comparable and many of the advantages of a quality kit are ignored.

I also find that larger ARTF models are becoming extremely expensive and as I have said before the black horse 60 inch hurricane is £250 and Richards kit is £130. If we ignore the engine, servos, retracts etc as they are common to both that leaves you with £120 to finish the airframe which is more than enough. On balance, I think they would probably end up a similar price but one would be far better than the other and likely to last much longer. There is also a great deal of satisfaction in having a model that is no generic and looks the same as everything else at the field.

As for having too many models, I'm not sure there is such a thing

Edited By Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 06/08/2017 10:19:09

[David Davis]

I had a very well known modeller who has been in the industry for a long time proudly announce that he'd bought 4 kits off me following one of our displays. He had of course bought the other sort.

You must admit that it's difficult for us mere potential customers to differentiate between two companies with similar names selling similar products.

[Dwain Dibley.]

Posted by Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 06/08/2017 10:17:51:

Posted by onetenor on 06/08/2017 05:31:06:

The problem I have with kits is I can't afford them .Wonderful as they are I couldn't convince my wife that they are not a waste of money.She already thinks a few sticks of balsa too expensive and likewise Depron. Also she considers I have enough planes already. However I do have to agree though regarding kit prices . I have 2 foamies ARTF.One I won in Dominic's draw and the other from Bang Good. Both are trainer types A Cessna 128 and a lakes.bush plane Not able to fly just now as I'm waiting for new hips and confined to a riser recliner chair. Hopefully done soon.

This post was quite interesting to me for a number of reasons but mostly because there is a comparison being made between mass produced plastic stuff from China and a locally produced quality kit. The two are not really comparable and many of the advantages of a quality kit are ignored.

I also find that larger ARTF models are becoming extremely expensive and as I have said before the black horse 60 inch hurricane is £250 and Richards kit is £130. If we ignore the engine, servos, retracts etc as they are common to both that leaves you with £120 to finish the airframe which is more than enough. On balance, I think they would probably end up a similar price but one would be far better than the other and likely to last much longer. There is also a great deal of satisfaction in having a model that is no generic and looks the same as everything else at the field.

As for having too many models, I'm not sure there is such a thing.

 

Kids, or young people, in their 20's for example, the ones I call the Xbox generation.....have had it all on a plate (there are always exceptions before I get Flamed) some of them have never even washed up or mown the the lawn or held a screwdriver...They don't see the difference between artf and a 1000 hour scale model........they look the same don't they ?......these are the people we are trying to get into building a model plane.

How the hell do you do that, when they can go out and buy a pre built ready to fly spitfire assume they can fly (as it says on the box), crash it and be put off for ever cos they can't, or don't know how to repair it.

I get my kids involved, two girls, 12 and 13, one has flown my easy glider, they both have little indoor twister helis.

I used to spend every weekend with my Grand parents.I would travel round with my Grandad, he was a fireman, to schools in the Big hols checking fire extinguishers. Thinks have changed a bit since then, most kids never come out of their rooms, off their phones, game console etc. Even cycling has suffered, kids don't ride bikes anymore much.

As the kits builders dwindle so does their influence on the next generation until there's no-one left, unless we do something about it.

Of course it may just be evolution.

D.D.

 

 

Edited By Dwain Dibley. on 06/08/2017 11:24:32

[Geoff S]

I agree with most of what Dwain says except for his comment on cycling, which is going through a renaissance. When I was member ship sec of our local club we had fewer than 90 members. My wife was both treasurer and membership sec until recently (she's still treasurer) and now there are over 400 members, many of them youngsters.

Geoff

[Daren Graham - Cambria Funfighters]

Posted by David Davis on 06/08/2017 10:31:57:

I had a very well known modeller who has been in the industry for a long time proudly announce that he'd bought 4 kits off me following one of our displays. He had of course bought the other sort.

You must admit that it's difficult for us mere potential customers to differentiate between two companies with similar names selling similar products.

Absolutely my point. How Do we get our message to everybody? I fully intend to do a history of the business and see if It can be an Article in RCM+E at some point. But I gaurantee that as many people read the article or more will not see it. I have several times made these things known both on hereand through show commentries and on Facebook, but even with paid advertising it wont reach everyone.

It's the same with general advertising for model businesses. One shot is not enough. It must be sustained exposure for years before you become Universally recognised. I've personnally been at it for over 10 years and there are still as many who dont know as do. Evolution, inovation and persistence have to be the key. Even collaboration amongst kit producers.

[Geoff S]

Posted by Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 06/08/2017 10:17:51:

As for having too many models, I'm not sure there is such a thing

There certainly is a limit to the number of models (or even hoarded kits). It's a simple formula:

N = n+1

Where N= number of models required and n= number of models owned.

Geoff

[Dwain Dibley.]

Posted by Geoff Sleath on 06/08/2017 11:28:15:

I agree with most of what Dwain says except for his comment on cycling, which is going through a renaissance. When I was member ship sec of our local club we had fewer than 90 members. My wife was both treasurer and membership sec until recently (she's still treasurer) and now there are over 400 members, many of them youngsters.

Geoff

I concede the point there Geoff, but that is the club scene, where the influence comes from parents and peers, and the government/health orgs etc. Don't get me wrong I love My Bikes, I cycle most Days and every day to work.  If the parents don't cycle it's unlikely the kids will.

However it is what the model scene requires.  Freeflighters get exercised chasing models, mind you, ironically,some use electric cycles.

D.D.

Edited By Dwain Dibley. on 06/08/2017 11:42:48

[David Davis]

Cycling has received a boost in Great BritaIn over the last twenty years or so because, in my view, so many top cyclists are British.

If the world model aerobatics or scale champion were British, would that lead to more young people taking up aeromodelling?

Somehow I doubt it. I am an enthusiast and I don't know who the world champion model flyers are.

[Brian Seymour]

Given modern prices kits are cheaper than the rrp on an equivalent ARFT but I think that the joy of kits is the actual building, the better: finish, flying characteristics, resilience and lower price are a nice little bonus.

Sadly I have neither a cunning nor subtle plan that will revolutionise the kit industry but I think but continually promoting kit building to my fellow club mates will eventually enable more folk to enjoy the "complete aeromodelling" experience that we do.My thinking is that sooner or later folk whose personal circumstances do not currently allow for building kits will change and that is when they will be able to expand their hobby to include building.

[RICHARD WILLS]

Posted by Geoff Sleath on 06/08/2017 11:35:24:

As for having too many models, I'm not sure there is such a thing

There certainly is a limit to the number of models (or even hoarded kits). It's a simple formula:

N = n+1

Where N= number of models required and n= number of models owned.

Geoff

Nice one Geoff , made me chuckle that .

I hear what you're saying about getting out there chaps and all that stuff , but if i google Ju88 rc , pictures of my 88 and a build thread will appear. Adrian is like a Don Quixote tramping round the shows with it, usually placing second or third in the competitions , with people often asking him where do I get one . However I never get a sniff.

All of my conclusions still come back to the simple fact - not enough people building , Google is the first thing I do when I want something , I dont buy a magazine or go to a show to find something .

All of us are sitting in our own field with a little fence round us . Some people look over but they dont come in .

That is why we all know each other . I dont think the new guys can be youngsters for all of DDs reasons. But they could be some of the middle aged ARTF flyers who are getting fed up with waiting for China to invent their dream plane . There is also the matter of aspiration . You can be the best ARTF flyer in the club but if old "George" turns up with a beautiful scratch built Hawker Fury , you wont be getting much attention and will swiftly be demoted in his presence.

Possibly the only way to tempt those on the fence, over , is to offer build nights during club meetings in the Autumn. Not Warbirds , but relatively simple yet inspiring models of traditional construction .

I was thinking something like the Gee Bee Y sports . Laser cut , it could be made in the village hall on a normal table with no tools and covered in bright solarfilm . The end result is almost ARTF in quality and achievable by anyone so would not be derided by those scornful (or jealous) of anyone breaking out of the mould.

The kit would have to be simple and cheap and I would be prepared to help out here . The lead rep hopefully one of us) in each club leading the charge would subsidised.

I am going to be really honest with you though , If it is just down to me , I will just nip out the back door and do something else , I'm going to do that anyway , I just feel , that for the sake of the building we all love , maybe we should have one parting shot before pulling up the drawbridge .

Richard

[John Davies 4]

Dave Hopkin, I know your post is an old post , but your last choice is excellent , a very unusual subject and much under rated aircraft , not the failure it`s made out to be , whether it has bad points which generally exclude it from being modelled I don`t know , but it`s definitely worth considering and is one of my favourites .