Take off into wind ?

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Similar to Geoffs thread about pilot box. How much fun n games has your club had with this one ? Been days when I or others have got to the field and there's a slight breeze, Suns causing issues and people are flying with the T.X in front of their face to block the Sun or one handed, or not flying (and yes they sell Sunglasses in Yorkshire) . So we agree to move over..then the fun starts

Mr Bloggs walks out n aims his model at the crowd line, whoa, what you doing ? BMFA says I've got to take off into wind....then the fun starts.

[Mowerman]

Another person reading guidelines as rules.

[Tim Cheal]

Airports are very constrained in this respect, you have to use the runway. So, you choose the one 'into wind' (i.e the one with a headwind component not the one with a tailwind component!).

I suspect the BMFA guidelines intend this philosophy to apply to models and flying sites as well.

Tim

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Not being critical of the BMFA folks, they expect we apply common sense to any guidelines, to cover every situation the handbook would be an epic volume.

[alex nicol]

That's the trouble with common sense...........it just ain't that common.........unlike degree's in hindsight, there's loads of them around

[Tim Flyer]

Flatulence on the flight line is frowned upon at my club 😉 Happy Friday all!

[Denis Watkins]

We move the Pit 90° John

The 1st to arrive judges the general wind direction and sets up the row accordingly

And yes, this does result in a shorter take off run, but we land crosswind or 45° to it maybe

And no, we do not fly from billiard table conditions, the rough just gets closer

And this just sharpens your resolve

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Posted by Timothy Harris 1 on 08/06/2018 16:57:55:

Flatulence on the flight line is frowned upon at my club 😉 Happy Friday all!

We tolerate bodily misdemeanours, prefer em done downwind though.

[Peter Miller]

There is a sweatshirt available with the slogan

"Common sense is such a rare commodity that it should be classed as a superpower"

[Ace]

Our patch is a circle so no problem with wind direction you would think. Fine if someone with common sense sets up first at 90', everyone follows However if those lacking C S get set up first because its next to the path, getting them to shift another 60m round falls on the same ears as reminding them not to reach through the prop when connecting a battery while its sat on their lap

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

We have a strip that is 80x40m. It is aligned NNW-SSE. The prevailng wind is NW.

We take off "right-to-left" along the strip more or less into a prevailing wind. In the odd case the wind is SW (happens), then we take-off along the strip in the opopsite direction, left-to-right. In all other wind direction cases we "do our best" to get as close to the wind as we can but we always along the strip in one direction or the other one. Never across the strip, out of line with the runway.

We learn how to land cross wind - a useful skill every pilot such master in the fullness of time I believe.

BEB

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

We have 3 mown runways, with a NNW/SSE one adjacent to our clubhouse (and kettle!) but getting anyone to move the 100 yards or so to our "Bottom Pits" is only a little easier than moving the twin peaks of Kilimanjaro to East Cheam...so crosswind take off and landing is second nature to most!

[Geoff S]

The hard runway at Ashbourne is roughly aligned N/S and we have a big grasspatch on the eastern side at the northern end. We usually pit along the eastern edge. Because the prevailing wind is westish most of the time and the runway was built for full size aircraft well over 70 years ago it's perfectly possible to land and take off across it so that's what we do a lot of the time.

The normal flying area is to the north so we don't have too much difficulty with the sun. The onlt time we move the pits to the west side of the runway is when the wind is in the se and into wind landings would be straight towards the pits. It's also often quite windy as we're very open so cross wind landings/takeoffs can be difficult especially for biplanes.

We're very lucky to fly where we do. However the airfield is scheduled for house building so our time is limited. I'm just hoping it lasts me out. I'm 78 so not likely still to be flying in 10 year's time

Geoff

[John Emms 1]

Some will say that I am privileged to be a member of a club with a tarmac runway, but the runway is model sized, and yes, people do take off and land crosswind without drama.

The real issue comes when flying rudder/elevator models, or those with a little more dihedral than the norm, and cross wind results in roll - those models do need to take off and land into wind to be safe. That needs consideration from the pilot of that model, and perhaps understanding from others.

[Old Geezer]

Having been taught to fly with the standard 3 function high winger of the time, taking off into wind was mandatory, see John's comments above, and landing into wind was more likely to be survivable. Let's face it a downwind landing if it was breezy was likely to result in a bent nose wheel at least. Regarding the possibility of the occasional 'Independant spirit' launching/landing towards the pits or pilot box, a quiet word should be enough, you should never, even in a good cause, make another club member ( and mate ) feel uncomfortable.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[cymaz]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 08/06/2018 21:17:50:

We have a strip that is 80x40m. It is aligned NNW-SSE. The prevailng wind is NW.

We take off "right-to-left" along the strip more or less into a prevailing wind. In the odd case the wind is SW (happens), then we take-off along the strip in the opopsite direction, left-to-right. In all other wind direction cases we "do our best" to get as close to the wind as we can but we always along the strip in one direction or the other one. Never across the strip, out of line with the runway.

We learn how to land cross wind - a useful skill every pilot such master in the fullness of time I believe.

BEB

We are exactly the same, with the same strip orientation ( different prevailing wind)...that’s what the rudder is for

BEB will appreciate this. I am facing down our main strip, the cones show the pilot box...look at the wind sock

Edited By cymaz on 09/06/2018 07:11:40

Edited By cymaz on 09/06/2018 07:12:42

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[John Emms 1]

Perhaps I should expand on my earlier post.

My usual method for cross wind landing is to set the model up so that the nose is pointing into wind, with the result that the track of the model in relation to the ground is along the runway. When about to touch down, the model is "kicked" with a "boot full" of rudder, to be pointing along the runway just before the wheels touch. I am sure that is how I was taught when gliding in the '70s. I have one model that must approach as slow as possible, touch down at the threshold, and can take most of the length of the runway to slow down.

One day I was flying circuits using my normal method, and also having some success in keeping the wings level, and adjusting the track using rudder, but commented to an airline pilot stood next to me that I preferred my normal method of flying the model into wind so the resultant track is down the runway. The comment I got back was "Yes, I prefer that method with full size too."

There has to be some understanding that rudder/elevator models MUST take off into wind, because the cross wind, or yaw component is what results in the roll for turn - but these models tend to be small, light, and quickly out of the way. I also have a light aileron model (TopModel Antic) that is a danger to itself if there is an attempt to take off cross wind - but, pointing into wind, it is safely off the ground within a couple of metres, and turning into circuit shortly after. BUT I wait until the runway is quiet, I ask if others are happy for me to take off across the narrow runway, and I am mindful of others. I spend no less time in the pilot's box than anyone taking off along the runway.

Have a great day!

John

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Posted by cymaz on 09/06/2018 07:00:39:

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 08/06/2018 21:17:50:

We have a strip that is 80x40m. It is aligned NNW-SSE. The prevailng wind is NW.

We take off "right-to-left" along the strip more or less into a prevailing wind. In the odd case the wind is SW (happens), then we take-off along the strip in the opopsite direction, left-to-right. In all other wind direction cases we "do our best" to get as close to the wind as we can but we always along the strip in one direction or the other one. Never across the strip, out of line with the runway.

We learn how to land cross wind - a useful skill every pilot such master in the fullness of time I believe.

BEB

We are exactly the same, with the same strip orientation ( different prevailing wind)...that’s what the rudder is for

BEB will appreciate this. I am facing down our main strip, the cones show the pilot box...look at the wind sock

Edited By cymaz on 09/06/2018 07:11:40

Edited By cymaz on 09/06/2018 07:12:42

Same here, we have dead areas either end, so if you mess up a little it's no biggie, gradually we taught/encouraged landing parallel and dealing with crosswinds, rudder/elevator models or other types affected badly by the breeze, pilots less able or confident ? a solution is there so you can fly n enjoy your day, it's not gonna be aiming at the crowd line though.

[John Emms 1]

Posted by john stones 1 on 09/06/2018 10:46:17:

Same here, we have dead areas either end, so if you mess up a little it's no biggie, gradually we taught/encouraged landing parallel and dealing with crosswinds, rudder/elevator models or other types affected badly by the breeze, pilots less able or confident ? a solution is there so you can fly n enjoy your day, it's not gonna be aiming at the crowd line though.

John, I am assuming that you are quite competent in using the rudder during cross wind landings, though I don't need to (until the last couple of seconds) using my method.

The way to check if the crosswind issue with rudder elevator models is down to the pilot is to try it yourself with an old rudder elevator model. I guarantee that you will suddenly become one of the less competent pilots.

It is said that rudder elevator models rely on the secondary effect of rudder ie yaw is followed by roll, but from observing the effect with a number of rudder elevator models, I am convinced that it is the dihedral that presents one wing at a higher aoa to the oncoming air when the model is yawed, and that it is the higher aoa that results in the roll for turn. This argument is supported by the fact that a model without dihedral will simply yaw with rudder, and not roll.

The issue with cross wind take off with a R/E model is that immediately you are presenting one wing at a higher aoa, so as soon as the model is lifting off the ground there will be a very strong roll, and most times, that will result in the model rolling into the ground. The same is true on landing, because as soon as the model is on the ground, it then has one wing presented at a higher aoa, and in a good cross wind, it will roll and crash. The good R/E pilot will make sure that the model is facing directly into wind for take off, and in a decent breeze, will need to land directly into wind - learnt over many years of getting it wrong.

Of course, if the flying of ANY model would result in over flying a crowd line, or pits area, then the thing to do is simply not fly that model at that time.

Regards,

John

[Nigel R]

I favour the approach described by John. Come in parallel to runway, apply bootful of rudder at touchdown. Takeoff is generally ok with rudder correction until moment of liftoff. Rudder elevator types can be much trickier - I prefer going sans U/C on a 3 chan.

"Of course, if the flying of ANY model would result in over flying a crowd line, or pits area, then the thing to do is simply not fly that model at that time."

See the previous post with quote about common sense.

Also, novice pilots sometimes lack the confidence to make a clear decision either way about flying (or not!) and/or takeoff direction. Some folks just simply lack common sense!

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

I manage o.k John, flying rudder elevator doesn't make me less competent, nor does flying the likes of Cubs or Tiggies or any other sort affected adversely by cross winds, I know what's going to happen, so I either deal with it or don't fly. Your last sentence I agree with, but would add, if people need help it's available.