Foamies for beginners?

[eflightray]

Posted by PatMc on 09/11/2018 21:07:47:

Posted by eflightray on 09/11/2018 20:12:41:

Posted by PatMc on 09/11/2018 20:03:25:

Posted by eflightray on 09/11/2018 19:14:57:

Posted by PatMc on 09/11/2018 16:44:52:

This is simply a description of an imagined situation using atypical stereotypes & cliches. It's your personal predjudices dressed up as progressive thinking.

But isn't that also typical of those that think balsa and IC engines are the only true material for models, that models have to be heavy to fly, that beginners should start with a 40 powered trainer, etc etc.

Ray, isn't what "typical of those etc..." ? and who "those" that you are refering to ?

Generalisations & use of stereotypes are indicators of weak unfounded argument.

True in so many ways, as expected.

.

Sorry Ray, I'm at a loss to understand your point.

In a previous post you agree with Dave's opinion, now you seem to agree with my view that finds no merit in his post.

I still agree with Dave's opinion, but I also felt your comment -- Generalisations & use of stereotypes are indicators of weak unfounded argument. - was true in so many ways. and that that sort of post, (yes, another generalisation), was typical and expected.

Ray.

[alex nicol]

Hi Kim,

I dare say there will be some alignment between the national bodies,and wouldn't want to imply otherwise. its just that I'm not well versed in that particular subject.

[Kim Taylor]

Posted by alex nicol on 10/11/2018 20:20:22:

Hi Kim,

I dare say there will be some alignment between the national bodies,and wouldn't want to imply otherwise. its just that I'm not well versed in that particular subject.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

It might be time for some of us to revisit BEB's original post - much of the subject matter of the last couple of pages was covered in it and the discussion has wandered rather off topic, in my opinion.

[Old Geezer]

Alex don't fuss about the biodegradability of foamies - once the hardware's been stripped out the average garden bonfire disposes of the carcass in seconds, just wait until it's burning brightly before you pop it on (ideally, broken down into manageable sized pieces).

Edited By Old Geezer on 10/11/2018 23:24:06

Edited By Old Geezer on 10/11/2018 23:24:51

[Peter Jenkins]

Seems to be some confusion about the BPC for fixed wing model aircraft. The text below is a straight cut and paste from the current "Test Standards for Chief Examiners and Club Examiners and Guidance for Test Candidates for Fixed Wing Power (BPC, A and B)" page 5

Whether the candidate is awarded a Basic Proficiency or an 'A' cert depends entirely on what model they present for the test with; 

 

• If the candidate presents with a model that is not capable of taking off from the ground they will take the BPC
• If the candidate presents with a model that is under 1kg, they will take a BPC, (irrespective of whether it has electronic stabilisation or not).
• If they present with a model with electronic stabilisation, they will take a BPC (irrespective of mass).
• If they present with a model without electronic stabilisation, which is over 1kg and capable of taking off from the ground, they will take an 'A' test.

Note the 3rd bullet point - irrespective of weight. So, in theory you could take the BPC with a 19.9 Kg model fitted with electronic stabilisation.

Seriously though, the BPC is exactly the same as an A test but allows those whose model is below 1 Kg, or has no undercarriage, or has flight stabilisation (irrespective of mass) to take a test that is identical to the A test. The standard to pass is the same.

BEB - cannot understand why your LA has said A test and won't accept the BPC. The two should be flown to the same standard and are identical.

The real problem is akin to passing your driving test with an automatic and then wanting to drive a manual transmission car. Someone has to monitor this. So, Club Committees might take the view that it is easier to just say A test or nothing. It is up to Clubs to decide what they consider to be an adequate standard to fly unsupervised at their Club. The BMFA does not require an A to be held to fly unsupervised.

[The Wright Stuff]

Posted by Don Fry on 10/11/2018 17:37:07:

I actually agree with Dave Hess. All he needs is a few lessons in presenting an argument wot don't wind up the opposition and he got it cracked.

+1

I my experience, there's a happy medium.

Posts have to be a bit provocative in order to generate a response. Meticulously reasoned, thoughtful and polite responses tend to be ignored!

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[alex nicol]

I think it's the joys of written communication..........it isn't always read or taken in the manner the writer intended

( that said there's nothing wrong with a bit of passionate debate as long as it doesn't get personall)

[Nigel R]

"Plus, some people are very quick to take offence or react disproportionately when no slight is intended. That does seem to be a modern development."

There is almost nothing that is more guaranteed to shut down a useful discussion. It forces things to devolve into simple reiteration of the 'politically correct' angle with no further useful development or exploration of a concept.

A pox on the quick to take offence!

[alex nicol]

There's a lot to be said for sleeping on it or save to draft for 24 hrs............what was this thread about again?

[Dave Hess]

The problem here is that you're not allowed to express your own opinion. As soon as you say anything outside the party line, you get personal attacks and threats of bans. Not everybody is a diplomat. What's happened is that the free-thinking engineers who have trouble expressing what they mean in a diplomatic way get jumped on and made to feel uncomfortable, so they migrate to other forums, where they enjoy the company of guys that think and write like themselves. That would leave behind all the biggots, luddites and dinasaurs, who all think and write the same.

You only have to look through the list of threads to see how much discussion there is about new stuff. The greater proportion of threads are about building planes that have been around for donkeys years. If a newb comes on here asking how to get started, he gets told to buld a plane from the'50s. If this is to be the forum for old and large balsa models only, you should change the name accordingly, but I thought RCM&E was tring to cover all aspects of model flying.

Further to what I wrote in para 1, this is the most unfriendly forum, I've been on. I post regularly on many forums, and have been doing so for many years - something like 35,000 posts in the last ten years, which is roughly 10 posts a day. I'd say that this is definitely the worst by a reasonable margin. You can ask me too to migrate to another forum if you want. It won't help you though to cut off messages that you don't want to hear.

So, back on topic. Foam planes are here to stay. They'll secure the future of the hobby. They should be encouraged rather than ridiculed. They're the perfect planes for newbs - wind or no wind. It doesn't matter that the newbs don't know how to trim them. In most cases they fly perfectly straight out of the box. First, we need to encourage them to get into the air and start enjoying the hobby. The rest will come later.

Edited By Dave Hess on 12/11/2018 12:17:03

Edited By Dave Hess on 12/11/2018 12:20:00

[Nigel R]

" If a newb comes on here asking how to get started, he gets told to buld a plane from the'50s"

I wasn't aware the HK Bixler was around in the 1950s. That's pretty common as a first plane recommendation.

"this is the most unfriendly forum"

It really isn't. And every single forum in the world will have a 'particular crowd'. So the majority here fly heavier models typically made of wood or the nice mix of foam and wood veneer developed in the late sixties, so what? So nothing. Lots of those airframes are ARTFs and lots of build threads to back that up. Loads of posters here also fly the more flyweight foamies. My most flown airframe is a foamie. I've expressed the opinion that foamies are a good thing a number of times, and have yet to be shot down for it, or receive a ban, or a personal insult.

There's not a massive jet crowd here, or heli crowd that I've seen either. Again, so what.

Clearly I'm only a sample size of one, so maybe others are needed to corroborate that fact. Or not, if it turns out it's actually a really unfriendly forum, and I've just been failing to see it.

Your hyperbole does you no favours, I think.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Posted by Dave Hess on 12/11/2018 12:09:55:

The problem here is that you're not allowed to express your own opinion. As soon as you say anything outside the party line, you get personal attacks and threats of bans. Not everybody is a diplomat. What's happened is that the free-thinking engineers who have trouble expressing what they mean in a diplomatic way get jumped on and made to feel uncomfortable, so they migrate to other forums, where they enjoy the company of guys that think and write like themselves. That would leave behind all the biggots, luddites and dinasaurs, who all think and write the same.

You only have to look through the list of threads to see how much discussion there is about new stuff. The greater proportion of threads are about building planes that have been around for donkeys years. If a newb comes on here asking how to get started, he gets told to buld a plane from the'50s. If this is to be the forum for old and large balsa models only, you should change the name accordingly, but I thought RCM&E was tring to cover all aspects of model flying.

Further to what I wrote in para 1, this is the most unfriendly forum, I've been on. I post regularly on many forums, and have been doing so for many years - something like 35,000 posts in the last ten years, which is roughly 10 posts a day. I'd say that this is definitely the worst by a reasonable margin. You can ask me too to migrate to another forum if you want. It won't help you though to cut off messages that you don't want to hear.

So, back on topic. Foam planes are here to stay. They'll secure the future of the hobby. They should be encouraged rather than ridiculed. They're the perfect planes for newbs - wind or no wind. It doesn't matter that the newbs don't know how to trim them. In most cases they fly perfectly straight out of the box. First, we need to encourage them to get into the air and start enjoying the hobby. The rest will come later.

Edited By Dave Hess on 12/11/2018 12:17:03

Edited By Dave Hess on 12/11/2018 12:20:00

I've read the thread, I still can't see what set you off ?

I have no agenda, nor dislike of foamies as I've stated. Express yourself to your hearts content and let others do the same. Later on in the thread you related an "experience" I suspect that led to your comments, not the "unfriendliness" of this forum, don't label large groups negatively, from a previous bad experience.RCME and this forum does cover and support all aspects of the hobby, even "Drones" get support, not from everyone mind you.

Wait while we get to a thread about noisy, cheap, Chinese, trimmer engines, they're fun.

[alex nicol]

What's a Chinese trimmer engine ?

[Bruce Collinson]

Obvious. It's a strimmer engine which has become caught up in its own cutters.

BTC

[alex nicol]

it was a genuine question but the penny has just dropped lol

[conrad taggart]

Double post 

Edited By conrad taggart on 12/11/2018 13:45:00

[conrad taggart]

Posted by conrad taggart on 12/11/2018 13:42:55:

Posted by Dave Hess on 12/11/2018 12:09:55:

... "So, back on topic. Foam planes are here to stay. They'll secure the future of the hobby. They should be encouraged rather than ridiculed. They're the perfect planes for newbs - wind or no wind. It doesn't matter that the newbs don't know how to trim them. In most cases they fly perfectly straight out of the box. First, we need to encourage them to get into the air and start enjoying the hobby. The rest will come later."

Being a beginner of approximately 2 months I totally agree and I wish there was as much energy, thought and debate given about how to make it easier for beginners to enter the hobby and progress all the way through it as there is to arguing about the merits of foam planes.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Yep foamies have been good for the hobby, brought our club plenty members, plenty effort and debate gone into helping beginners with them as well.

[Cuban8]

I view foamies as the TV dinners of our hobby. Quick to prepare, perfectly adequate and very popular, yet if one was to live on them without exploring the wider culinary world, think of how much would be missed.

[Dave Hess]

Instead of analysing the words and putting the content through the judgement by peers test, try and look for the message. I can maybe make it a bit clearer by asking a single question: Where are all the newcomers on this forum? See if you can count how many people that are new to the hobby have joined and stayed during the last 3 or 6 months. Other RC forums get several newbs a day, and many of them stay. Without newcomers what we have here will fizzle out.

Regarding the unfriendliness, there's no single event, it's just the general negativeness and cliquiness that jumps out at me. I currently post on around 20 different forums and I've used maybe 100 in the last few years, so I have a lot of experience in what goes on. With that experience, I can tell you that there's definitely something wrong here. It's not just me. I mentioned my thoughts down at my local; club. Many of them said that they thought the same, which is why they don't use it. Maybe try the same at your clubs if you think I'm wrong.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Been stomped on plenty of times on here Dave, regardless of that, there are plenty friendly people on here, even those who stomped on me ain't so bad.

[alex nicol]

I think the TV dinners sort of sums it up, but irrespective of what I or any of the rest of us think perhaps the real important bit is our opinions are relatively unimportant . What matters is how do the foamie flying newbies feel about the encouragement, advice and training they've received at club level and what can we all do to enhance it......... now there's a topic for discussion

[Stephen Smith 14]

Have to agree with dave especially about the cliquiness its full of it, if your face doesn't fit your not welcome, and say something a mod disagrees with and your out of here.

To be honest a lot of the advice isn't always that good, that is unless you fly a 1950s design.

Well that's my piece said and I suppose I'll be banned again but there's millions of email addresses out there.