Foamies for beginners?

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

You are wrong - there are two!

[Engine Doctor]

I think a major consideration for new flyers is that many don't have the room at home to build or store a decent sized trainer beit electric or I/C. Those of us that do have the room take building and storage for granted . Gone are the days of pinning models to the dinner table and stinking the hose out with glue and dope or fuel .Amongst other roles I am also membership secretary for our club and get to meet ,have a chat with introduce most of the new members to our club . A lot of new members have moved to the area and live in  new houses that have sprung up everywhere. Most don't have much room for a hobby like ours and a large portion of them don't have a garage or a garden big enough to build a shed . So new members have little choice but to take the easier electric/foam approach when they start unless they want to start WW 3 with their spouses/partners.. All new members that are new to the hobby are encouraged to come to the flying field and have a chat , meet the club instructors and choose whats best for them that can comfortably fit in with their home life before they go buying . Many as already said turn up with lightweight foam jobs but either quickly  realise they have to adapt to our often windy site, yes it often very windy in the south east too, and buy something more substantial or realise its not a hobby for them and leave . Fortunately very few leave us and most go on to be active club members

As for comparing our flying efforts to the birds .............drifting off the O/P .......................Dream on .

Edited By Engine Doctor on 07/10/2018 10:18:28

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Engine Doctor]

Posted by David Mellor on 07/10/2018 10:52:49:

Available space may be a factor.

Another may be time-poverty.

When the generation to which I belong started out, work was nine-till-five with free weekends and free evenings and no social media. So lots of people in full time work actually had some real leisure time (more than work time), and perhaps some space. But very little spare cash.

These days it seems some folk have more spare cash, but no time and little space in which to build. And off the shelf foamies are cheap, good (mostly) and promise instant gratification.

Your bang on there

[Capt Kremen]

+1 Engine Doctor & David Mellor

Also ... (And I'm sure your preferred model shop/dealer would never, ever do this), what some model suppliers off-load and sell to a newbie.

Time after time we've had newcomers present at our club site with models barely flyable even by our ace-of-the-base top flier members let alone a raw beginner.

I appreciate it may come down to base human instinct for survival, pay the rates this week on the shop and clear a few of these glossy far-eastern boxes or not!!!

[Glenn Philbrick]

We have had a recent surge of new members mainly as a result of the program on C4. two have bought models already one of which is a spitfire the other is a lightweight foamy complete with Tx which does not have a buddy socket. We also have a couple of members who are learning and they have foam models as well but the number of times they get to fly is very low due to wind, also the time in the air is low due to them being electric.

We have decided to get an old IC trainer and do it up to use as a club trainer so that it can be flown more often and give pupils longer on the sticks. Hopefully this will enable them to move on in their ability quicker.

We need to keep the batteries topped for both TX and RX up but only have 12v supply in our shed is there a trickle charger that we could leave connected to ensure they are fully charged each time.

[Bruce Collinson]

I started(again) 30 months ago with an Apprentice. My utter spellbound enthralment when my tutor made me land it by simple expedient of backing the throttle and letting it settle into the grass, about 200 yds beyond the end of the strip, had me bitten. I flew it with supervision the first spring, but the wise heads at the club quickly got me onto a 90 4str high wing trainer of unknown provenance, christened the Beast, provided, refurbed and occasionally straightened out by a very generous tutor.

Now I have a Wot 4,an Acrowot, a Yak, a Heron, a Sukhoi and a classic F3A in build and fly them all solo.

The foam stabilised Apprentice has been moved on, having got me smitten. The Beast taught me to fly properly. I have some 4 strokes and 2 petrols but mostly fly electric as I often have short sessions and like the speed and cleanliness of electrons but I really like flying many different planes on the day.

The point is, everything has its place and there’s no need for proscription. A built up i/c high wing trainer with adequate power is probably a good starting position, although I was lent a Yamamoto for a short while when the Beast was in the hanger and it was like a box of frogs in comparison so bigger is better.

A club trainer is a great idea if someone will take custody of it.

if it brings in new, safe and sensible members, there’s no wrong way, is there?

BTC

[conrad taggart]

Being a beginner - yes space is an issue and so is time and money. You don't want to commit too much at the start to you know it is for you and know what you are doing. I first took to an Apprentice 15e because that's what the majority of the forums seemed to recommend.

This was probably due to too much of an US influence - where Hobby Horizon provides far better prices and service than they do in the UK and Europe. Anyway this wasn't a particular successful route for me because none of the would be trainers were familiar with the Apprentice’s SAFE technology, plus whilst the technology was great for flying around in very big circles in calm weather it was actually useless and a hindrance in the Autumn winds as it was very difficult to get control of the plane, particularly if it got downwind of you. On my first solo flight I had a crash which was rather minor but cost £60 + in bits - front cowl, tail and motor shaft ... the prop didn't even break, get marked as the crash was so light !

Anyway the next option I went for was a Bixler 1.1 V2. Just over £70 as opposed to £225 for the Apprentice with no front prop / damage to worry about as the prop is rear mounted on the Bixler and it can be flown and landed in the roughest of fields as it doesn't have an undercarriage. If things do go wrong it can easily be fixed due to the lack of plastic parts, front prop and undercarriage. Indeed if things went really badly you could replace the entire plane with an ARF version for £41 (delivered) !

In terms of absorbing damage it is better than the Apprentice by factors and about 4 times cheaper to fix should things go really wrong (which is difficult given how tuff it is). I have put this plane nose first into the ground and simply glued the broken fuselage and wings and treated the dented nose with hot water to pop it back into shape and had it back in the air within 30 mins. It has done circa 50 plus flights since then with no more trouble / crashes. So very little time, knowledge, skill or money is required to get you back-up and running again and because of this you can actually enjoy learning to fly and progress at a reasonable pace.

If I had a balsa plane that was or wasn't electric, it couldn't provide any of the above advantages. Plus the Bixler deals with the wind relatively well. Don't get me wrong I prefer balsa / heavier planes. Indeed I own a few already, but I have set them aside until I have developed my skills sufficiently on the BIxler (my basher) and supplemented them with a foamie trainer or my original Apprentice with all the SAFE technology turned off.

As someone once said t - "inch by inch it is a cinch".

Taggarc

[Nigel R]

100% absolutely the right attitude to take toward the trainer model, Conrad. It's a tool to get you learned. Nothing more.

If you've made 50 flights with no mishaps maybe its time for a bigger heavier airframe, to get used to a bit more inertia and the 'thinking ahead' that comes with it

Bixler is the local favourite for learners, too. As you've said - cheap, tough, cheap, easy to fix, handles a bit of wind, cheap, stable enough to learn on.

[Glenn Philbrick]

Our club has just bought a club trainer 40 sized for many of the reasons mentioned earlier. We have new members wanting to learn with foamies but that are not capable of flying in anything other than light winds so they just do not get the stick time to learn and some just get frustrated and leave.

The local model shops don't always give the right advice either as we have had Spitfires turn up just because it says easy to fly on the box. I guess they have been influenced by the C4 program and we have noticed an increase in interest as a result.

The trainer has been built up from bits and pieces donated by members although the airframe is new. We will now have a discussion on whether we should make a small charge to put towards the inevitable repairs.

[Brian Dorricott 1]

I had a similar start 2 years ago in the hobby with an Apprentice and once instructor and I mastered wireless buddy boxing ( the way to go ) it was ok while I learnt the basics . Had an elevator part company and crashed , fixed and who didn't put enough glue on fin and crashed again . Then found the AS3X was doing some strange things so replaced it with a straight 6 channel and know I started to learn , yes got blown about a bit and sometimes very inelegant but somehow much more fun than "assisted" flight. Basics coming together at this point I bought and fitted out an Epioneer with 62in wingspan a bit more weight , this one I managed a midair crash fixed , then a battery fell out crashed fixed - you get the idea lots of heavy landings but lashings of epoxy and back to field . I know had something I could fly in a wind with no bother at all even to level of saying to instructor " leave it I've got it " A test fairly flew by and then I really started learning . I still have the Apprentice and 2 Bixlers and they are great fun but on a windy day Epioneer for electric or 46 powered Boomerang are the go to guys .

In hindsight I would have bypassed the Apprentice and gone straight to Epioneer and saved myself 7/8 months but everyone's different.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Cuban8]

Posted by David Mellor on 07/10/2018 10:52:49:

Available space may be a factor.

Another may be time-poverty.

When the generation to which I belong started out, work was nine-till-five with free weekends and free evenings and no social media. So lots of people in full time work actually had some real leisure time (more than work time), and perhaps some space. But very little spare cash.

These days it seems some folk have more spare cash, but no time and little space in which to build. And off the shelf foamies are cheap, good (mostly) and promise instant gratification.

I have a newspaper article that examines the problem of modern high pressure living, the lack of time available for family life and the eventual effect on the population's well being....................I found the newspaper containing the piece under the ancient linoleum that I was removing from our first house in 1981 - the paper was the Daily Sketch dated September 1938.

I think the "I don't have enough time/space /money/skill" etc. excuse is often overplayed. However, given what was just around the corner in September 1938 for the Daily Sketch readers (and everyone else) things were going to get a bit distracting and a real burden on their spare time.

Turn the TV off, chuck the smartphone in the drawer when you get home, and make time! Keep off internet forums

 

Edited By Cuban8 on 08/11/2018 10:36:44

[Jon Laughton]

Great comments Conrad and well done to you for being so open and realistic. I guess you're 'sticking with it' so good luck on your journey in our fascinating hobby

Edited By Jon Laughton on 08/11/2018 10:44:00

[conrad taggart]

"We have new members wanting to learn with foamies but that are not capable of flying in anything other than light winds so they just do not get the stick time to learn and some just get frustrated and leave."

Glenn I don't know what the stats are in the club I joined for this but I suspect they are fairly high. Indeed if it had not been for a few kind souls at the club and the fact that I can access a private flying spot near my house - albeit with rough ground - I may have been tempted to throw in the towel ages ago. Learning at this time of the year probably isn't helpful either.

"Secondly - the best piece of advice I got was to stick to one model and fly the bejesus out of it. There is no substitute for stick time. You can log your hours as well, so you know how much time you've accumulated"

Totally agree David plus as per your suggestion I am using the heavier batteries (3000mah instead of 2200) to increase flight time / put more weight into the aircraft – currently coping with 10+ mph winds and gusts just over 20 mph. I am also using a sim (Pheonix) with weather settings set well above this (live circa 1100 ft above sea level so calm free wind days are relatively rare).

Brian agree re the Apprentice AS3x doing “strange things” - even my instructors who are amazing flyers where bemused by it and found it behaved very oddly. I would definitely not recommend this as a first plane unless the instructors are familiar with it. Even then I would say stay away because of the price of parts and the front facing prop etc. The Epioneer with 62in wingspan sounds like it would make an interesting second plan.

Nigel re bigger airframe, I have a second hand Sig Kadet (similar in size / style to the Epioneer) which I intend use at the club after I have built up a bit of experience of landing and taking off with wheels using a foamie –it’s just too nice to smash !

"I think the "I don't have enough time/space /money/skill" etc. excuse is often overplayed"

Cuban 8 it is not an excuse, they are simply contributing factors as these things are not infinite. If they were and I could handle the heartache of seeing a lovely balsa airplane that was beautifully crafted lying in hundreds of bits after a crash and it didn't result in unnecessary wastage and grief then I would fly Balsa all the time! Foam just seems to make much more sense as a starting point for me and the majority of beginners. Plus there is so much to take on at this time and to get to grips with - flying, electronics, servos, safety, trimming, essential mods, initial and intended disciplines and endless other options ...

Glenn, I love the idea of a training plane at a club and I don't think it would be unreasonable to offer this option to a beginner in exchange for a fee upfront - i.e. maybe 2 entry levels in year 1 - "Option A" the normal fee ; "Option B" includes A, plus a fee of say £25 for the trainer. It would be great for those windy days when the trainee couldn't use their own plane.

Also from what I have seen too much of the training burden falls on the same individuals within a club and the beginner can soon feel like they are a burden and even getting in the way of the majority of flyers who just want to fly their planes. Often others are willing to help, but they have a different radio or mode. To even things out I think something like this combined with the club trainer would be a really good way to go for a progressive club.

**LINK**

It would remove the radio and mode issues, share the training responsibility and expose the trainee to more people, and hence options, advice and experience. Hopefully it would ultimately improve the conversion rate of trainees to fully fledged on-going club members and when the time comes give them a chance to put something back by training the next generation of RC flyers.

[Mike Etheridge 1]

I would recommend the foam Twinstar 2 as a good plane to learn on. Mine has flown for 12 years with NI MH batteries that weigh 1lb 2 ounces each so the plane does penetrate in relatively high winds, so gets used as a hack most times I go flying. It's made of EP foam so is fairly crash resistant. The newer Twinstar 2 has brush less motors and tends to be used with LI PO batteries so I am not sure how well it penetrates ?. Of course the plane is not supplied with an undercarriage so without one it is no good for the A-test.

[Dave Hess]

This thread just fills me with despair. This is what it could be like. Note that they're more or less all made of foam:

Edited By Dave Hess on 09/11/2018 02:01:09

[Nigel R]

Mass combat event, looks relevant in a thread talking about beginner planes, or not, am I missing something?

[Dave Hess]

Posted by Nigel R on 09/11/2018 09:55:00:

Mass combat event, looks relevant in a thread talking about beginner planes, or not, am I missing something?

Of course you're missing something. That's the whole point of why I wrote it. The larger proportion of those guys flying in that video are beginners. They're flying cheap, easy to make planes mostly made of foam board. Their planes fly pretty well, in fact in the 40 years I've been building and flying, I can say that the Flitetest planes fly as well as anything, if not better.. What you see in the video, though not obvious, is loads of people having accessible fun. If you look at the Flitetest forum, you'll see new members joining every day. How many new members do we get here?

That event wasn't a national combat event. Instead, it was an event organised to get as many new flyers as possible to join in a fun day (or three) building and flying planes. The emphasis is on participation and fun. As you can see, the event was successful. Originally, they only had one event per year. Now they have several. I came back to the hobby after a bit of a break. In the UK I don’t see any events that weren't around in the 80s except maybe Indoor 3D, which might owe it's existance to foam planes.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Nigel R]

"The Bristish..."

...to be found near Bristol?

[Bob Cotsford]

I think that if you are 20 or 30 something and not constrained by a club with a formal training regime then the Flitetest type foamies would be a fun way to learn. Unfortunately as we get older we seem to put more value on 'things' 'structure' and 'risk' and less on fun. Or maybe we just have less energy to burn off. Anyway, at the clubs I've been in most of our novices are older gents and a Flitetest mass build and launch would result in multiple medical or underwear emergencies. On the other hand, give then an ST Discovery and an empty circuit and they are happy bunnies.

Ps - though there may be a few relative beginners in that melee I would say that most appear to be competant flyers!

Edited By Bob Cotsford on 09/11/2018 11:51:57

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[alex nicol]

my twopenethworth,

It's a hobby it should be fun and enjoyable, foamies are here that's a fact........create an A cert for foamies

Let's face it who wants to walk out of the shop with their latest purchase only to be told it's rubbish, because it hasn't got wheels or it won't fly in the wind or you can't sit your test with that.

I think if you look at some of the responses on here it could have a fair bit to do with the decline. At the end of the day we are all modellers and any thing from a frisbe to a foamie that flies should be appreciated.

Right, that's me done I'm going back in my box (made of foam)

[Dave Hess]

Posted by Ikura on 09/11/2018 11:11:10:

I think you are missing something Dave.

What works in America doesn't often work here. The Bristish are more reserved and prefer to do things in a more careful and controlled manner with individual tuition, hopefully leading them to gain an A certificate.

Mass foam board toy launches are fine if that is your thing. The OP was stating that lightweight foam beginners models are probably not the best place to start, and you propose that lightweight foam board models are a great place to start?

You've sort of hit the nail on the head. It could or would work here, except that the dinasaurs of the industry and the fun prevention police are trying to force the hobby in the way you suggest. It's not the British being reserved that's holding us back. It's jobsworth luddites! The old guys in the club who train newbs to get their A and B certs force the methods that were used on themselves 30 years ago onto these newbs without ever thinking that there might be different ways. You can see this right here on this forum. RC flying is more accessible than it's ever been. The last thing we should do is restrict it with paradymes from the '70s and '80s.

Yes, I am suggesting lightweight foam planes are a good place to start. They fly better, are generally more robust and they're easier to repair. Beginners don't like to fly when windy period. It's nothing to do with what their planes are made of. Of course if you offer them a chance to buddy-box a club hack, where there's no risk to their pockets or flying career, they'll take it.

I fly lightweight foam planes myself - generally aound 1KG or less. The wind doesn't bother me one iota. If anybody else is flying, so will I. Nobody enjoys flying in gales/ heavy winds, except maybe the slope soarers.