Foamies for beginners?

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[conrad taggart]

My Bixler does reasonably well in the wind. Plus it wouldn't be difficult to put a stabiliser in it (not the awful thing in the Apprentice) to make it behave like an even bigger plane on windy days. Others even mentioned the idea of having a more traditional club trainer for beginners which could be used on windy days. Being a beginner I think this is a great idea.

If foam models did not exist there would certainly be a lot less beginners, which could hardly be a good thing.

Ikura you are right about Americans being different. They are more forward and know a lot more about marketing and how to capture the general public's attention and imagination. Only by appealing to would be new flyers can you grow the hobby so I don't seem the harm in this, If something like the Ohio event was done at the Chatsworth show or part of some other big even it would certainly stand a very good chance of working.

When Dave first mentioned the Flite Fest Ohio 2018 event involving hundreds of pilots I thought he was making the opposite point - i.e. suggesting that the UK may be inundated with foam planes if they are not stamped out rather than highlighting how successful they are and can be in opening up, what is a very insular and declining hobby, to new would be participants.

At some point, something will replace foam and I am sure the same sort of comments being made here will be made about its replacement. However, for the moment it is here and for very good reasons. Those that hark back to the old days perhaps should bear the following in mind and if the hobby doesn’t continue to change then it will die

“The Only Thing That Is Constant Is Change -”
― Heraclitus

I certainly would not have got started if it wasn’t for foam planes. As I said in my earlier post I have more traditional models that I prefer, but have set them aside until I am good enough , or arguably even deserve, to fly them.

[eflightray]

Posted by Dave Hess on 09/11/2018 13:28:08:

You've sort of hit the nail on the head. It could or would work here, except that the dinasaurs of the industry and the fun prevention police are trying to force the hobby in the way you suggest. It's not the British being reserved that's holding us back. It's jobsworth luddites! The old guys in the club who train newbs to get their A and B certs force the methods that were used on themselves 30 years ago onto these newbs without ever thinking that there might be different ways. You can see this right here on this forum. RC flying is more accessible than it's ever been. The last thing we should do is restrict it with paradymes from the '70s and '80s.

Yes, I am suggesting lightweight foam planes are a good place to start. They fly better, are generally more robust and they're easier to repair. Beginners don't like to fly when windy period. It's nothing to do with what their planes are made of. Of course if you offer them a chance to buddy-box a club hack, where there's no risk to their pockets or flying career, they'll take it.

I fly lightweight foam planes myself - generally aound 1KG or less. The wind doesn't bother me one iota. If anybody else is flying, so will I. Nobody enjoys flying in gales/ heavy winds, except maybe the slope soarers.

Absolutely spot on.

Ray.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Posted by eflightray on 09/11/2018 15:27:34:

Posted by Dave Hess on 09/11/2018 13:28:08:

You've sort of hit the nail on the head. It could or would work here, except that the dinasaurs of the industry and the fun prevention police are trying to force the hobby in the way you suggest. It's not the British being reserved that's holding us back. It's jobsworth luddites! The old guys in the club who train newbs to get their A and B certs force the methods that were used on themselves 30 years ago onto these newbs without ever thinking that there might be different ways. You can see this right here on this forum. RC flying is more accessible than it's ever been. The last thing we should do is restrict it with paradymes from the '70s and '80s.

Yes, I am suggesting lightweight foam planes are a good place to start. They fly better, are generally more robust and they're easier to repair. Beginners don't like to fly when windy period. It's nothing to do with what their planes are made of. Of course if you offer them a chance to buddy-box a club hack, where there's no risk to their pockets or flying career, they'll take it.

I fly lightweight foam planes myself - generally aound 1KG or less. The wind doesn't bother me one iota. If anybody else is flying, so will I. Nobody enjoys flying in gales/ heavy winds, except maybe the slope soarers.

Absolutely spot on.

Ray.

Spot on is it, can you enlighten me then please.

What have the Dinosaurs of the industry done you don't like ?

What have the fun prevention police, jobsworth Luddites done ?

Who are these old guys who train for A B certs and force their will on you ?

What's a 70s 80s paradigm and how are you being restricted by it ?

Do lightweight foamies really fly "better" or do you just like them (nothing wrong with that) .

[alex nicol]

Yeah..........What have the dinosaurs ever done for us lol

Sorry just couldn't resist that........it just caused recollection of a certain scene from MP's Life of Brian

[PatMc]

Posted by Dave Hess on 09/11/2018 13:28:08:

It could or would work here, except that the dinasaurs of the industry and the fun prevention police are trying to force the hobby in the way you suggest. It's not the British being reserved that's holding us back. It's jobsworth luddites! The old guys in the club who train newbs to get their A and B certs force the methods that were used on themselves 30 years ago onto these newbs without ever thinking that there might be different ways. You can see this right here on this forum. RC flying is more accessible than it's ever been. The last thing we should do is restrict it with paradymes from the '70s and '80s.

This is simply a description of an imagined situation using atypical stereotypes & cliches. It's your personal predjudices dressed up as progressive thinking.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Posted by PatMc on 09/11/2018 16:44:52:

Posted by Dave Hess on 09/11/2018 13:28:08:

It could or would work here, except that the dinasaurs of the industry and the fun prevention police are trying to force the hobby in the way you suggest. It's not the British being reserved that's holding us back. It's jobsworth luddites! The old guys in the club who train newbs to get their A and B certs force the methods that were used on themselves 30 years ago onto these newbs without ever thinking that there might be different ways. You can see this right here on this forum. RC flying is more accessible than it's ever been. The last thing we should do is restrict it with paradymes from the '70s and '80s.

This is simply a description of an imagined situation using atypical stereotypes & cliches. It's your personal predjudices dressed up as progressive thinking.

Absolutely spot on

[Dave Hess]

As Einstein said, you can't solve the problem with the thinking that was used to create it.

[Steve Colman]

Some interesting comments made here, especially about flying light foam models in windy conditions.

For me, when it gets too windy that most in my club stop flying, I fly my lightest foam model and have an absolute blast with it. The model in question being the HK Hummer @ 565g. On many occasions, the Hummer has been seen flying inverted in a rearwards direction along the strip much to the dismay of onlookers.

Agreed, this wouldn't be a suitable situation for beginers but to dismiss foamies as not suitable for beginers because they're too light is a misnomer to me. I taught myself to fly using small, light foam models and now fly all sorts and enjoy them all for different reasons. However, I'm happy to admit that I do prefer the, more or less, instant response of lightweight models in comparison to their heavier brethren.

[PatMc]

Posted by Dave Hess on 09/11/2018 18:36:22:

As Einstein said, you can't solve the problem with the thinking that was used to create it.

What problem do you have in mind ?

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Posted by Dave Hess on 09/11/2018 18:36:22:

As Einstein said, you can't solve the problem with the thinking that was used to create it.

Well maybe you should have listened when he told you that then ?

Thread seemed like many others to me, how you got where you got is a mystery, what in this thread prompted your comments, go read my early one first, might help.

[eflightray]

Posted by PatMc on 09/11/2018 16:44:52:

 

This is simply a description of an imagined situation using atypical stereotypes & cliches. It's your personal predjudices dressed up as progressive thinking.

But isn't that also typical of those that think balsa and IC engines are the only true material for models, that models have to be heavy to fly, that beginners should start with a 40 powered trainer, etc etc.

Perhaps I should explain, I'm 75, so no rebellious youngster, been building and flying since I was 11 years old, tried most things, and yet there is still much to try and experience.

I don't often post in this forum as I feel there is something of the 'good old boys' feel about it. My preference is an American forum where everything appears to be more on a friendly and helpful attitude. For those now thinking "perhaps you should stay there", I try to keep an open mind and help where I can, I also feel if I have an opinion, I should be able to express it.

As for beginners, I have helped a few. One of the first thing I usually explain is 'don't try to fly on a windy day, you put your model at too great a risk, wait for a calmer day. I mentioned in a previous post in this thread, the problem could be some models are under powered, not too light. For those that feel a model is too light, why not suggest adding some ballast, as long as the model is capable of taking it.

I'll give up there.

Ray.

 

 

Edited By eflightray on 09/11/2018 19:16:29

Edited By eflightray on 09/11/2018 19:21:53

[PatMc]

Posted by eflightray on 09/11/2018 19:14:57:

Posted by PatMc on 09/11/2018 16:44:52:

This is simply a description of an imagined situation using atypical stereotypes & cliches. It's your personal predjudices dressed up as progressive thinking.

But isn't that also typical of those that think balsa and IC engines are the only true material for models, that models have to be heavy to fly, that beginners should start with a 40 powered trainer, etc etc.

Ray, isn't what "typical of those etc..." ? and who "those" that you are refering to ?

Generalisations & use of stereotypes are indicators of weak unfounded argument.

[eflightray]

Posted by PatMc on 09/11/2018 20:03:25:

Posted by eflightray on 09/11/2018 19:14:57:

Posted by PatMc on 09/11/2018 16:44:52:

This is simply a description of an imagined situation using atypical stereotypes & cliches. It's your personal predjudices dressed up as progressive thinking.

But isn't that also typical of those that think balsa and IC engines are the only true material for models, that models have to be heavy to fly, that beginners should start with a 40 powered trainer, etc etc.

Ray, isn't what "typical of those etc..." ? and who "those" that you are refering to ?

Generalisations & use of stereotypes are indicators of weak unfounded argument.

True in so many ways, as expected.

.

[Gary Manuel]

Posted by Steve Colman on 09/11/2018 18:37:38:

Some interesting comments made here, especially about flying light foam models in windy conditions.

For me, when it gets too windy that most in my club stop flying, I fly my lightest foam model and have an absolute blast with it. The model in question being the HK Hummer @ 565g. On many occasions, the Hummer has been seen flying inverted in a rearwards direction along the strip much to the dismay of onlookers.

Agreed, this wouldn't be a suitable situation for beginers but to dismiss foamies as not suitable for beginers because they're too light is a misnomer to me. I taught myself to fly using small, light foam models and now fly all sorts and enjoy them all for different reasons. However, I'm happy to admit that I do prefer the, more or less, instant response of lightweight models in comparison to their heavier brethren.

+1 for hanging a Hummer on a 30mph wind.

I've learnt as much from my Hummer as I did from my trainer.

Edited By Gary Manuel on 09/11/2018 20:19:46

[PatMc]

Posted by eflightray on 09/11/2018 20:12:41:

Posted by PatMc on 09/11/2018 20:03:25:

Posted by eflightray on 09/11/2018 19:14:57:

Posted by PatMc on 09/11/2018 16:44:52:

This is simply a description of an imagined situation using atypical stereotypes & cliches. It's your personal predjudices dressed up as progressive thinking.

But isn't that also typical of those that think balsa and IC engines are the only true material for models, that models have to be heavy to fly, that beginners should start with a 40 powered trainer, etc etc.

Ray, isn't what "typical of those etc..." ? and who "those" that you are refering to ?

Generalisations & use of stereotypes are indicators of weak unfounded argument.

True in so many ways, as expected.

.

Sorry Ray, I'm at a loss to understand your point.

In a previous post you agree with Dave's opinion, now you seem to agree with my view that finds no merit in his post.

[Mark Howard 1]

My first buddy box session with an instructor was done with a light weight foamy I had taken to the club. It was quite windy. My second session later that day was on a IC powered balsa WOT 4. I loved the stability and weight of the WOT 4 in the wind but learned a lot more with the foamy.

I often fly a foamy on windy days just for the fun. Flying backwards in a head wind is a huge grin and the relative cost and bendyness of a foamy makes it a relatively low risk pastime.

Foam planes are relatively cheap, relatively expendable and are responsible for bringing many people into the hobby and so should be encouraged IMO.

I do agree though; an 'A test' taken on a foamy probably doesn't fully qualify you to fly a large heavy plane safely as their flying characteristics are so different. Maybe there needs to be a phased test scheme like full sized pilot training with each stage allowing you to fly different categories of aircraft (maybe based on weight) to cater for the diversity we have in the modern flying scene - I wouldn't want to administer it though.

[alex nicol]

One thing that just occurred to me and it's at a slight tangent to this thread.........is the foam used biodegradable or have a plastic content...........if so its possible environmental legislation could be the demise of foam.........if the raw materials used for plastic, straws, cotton buds and polystyrene take away containers are on the environmental/recycling hit list........it could have an impact on the long term future of foamies.

On a separate note maybe we should look at a very very basic test (suitably caveated around model weight and power) which includes take off (either from ground or hand launch) fly a circuit and land in a given space in a reasonably competent manner...... Something which could be achievable after a couple of hours flying......a bit like the motorcycle CBT scheme......Also trainee choice whether to sit basic or go straight to the A schedule

[Kim Taylor]

Posted by alex nicol on 10/11/2018 09:17:52:

On a separate note maybe we should look at a very very basic test (suitably caveated around model weight and power) which includes take off (either from ground or hand launch) fly a circuit and land in a given space in a reasonably competent manner...... Something which could be achievable after a couple of hours flying......a bit like the motorcycle CBT scheme......Also trainee choice whether to sit basic or go straight to the A schedule

Isn't this what the BP Certificate via the BMFA awards scheme is?

I know there's a figure 8 and a loop thrown in, but nothing too onerous.

I do agree that the 'testing', whether BMFA or at local club level, needs to keep up with current technology and construction methods and if this means stabilised foamies, then so be it.

Kim

[alex nicol]

Hi Kim,

I'm north of the border so not to sure on what the BMFA test parameters are....up here we have bronze/silver and Gold. Bronze I think might be similar to the BMFA A

It's a start it up, take off, a couple of circuits, left hand P, right hand P, simulated dead stick, landing then demonstrate knowledge of safety code of practice by answering a few questions. in short demonstrate basic competency in safe operation of a model aircraft.

Safety is safety that doesn't change, I guess this is just a case of needing to keep up with the times and technology

For me anything that gets new recruits should be welcomed and the "you didn't buy one of them, did you" frame of mind should be binned ...........I'm not saying that's the usual welcome.......but everybody knows one of them........like they say, you only get one chance to make a good impression

[Dave Hess]

The problem with the safety is that most rules are to cover the worst case scenario. They're fine for some of the projectiles I've seen people throwing around the sky with crowds around, but don't really apply to a guy on his own flying a three ounce slow-fly at his local club. Some clubs have rules that you can't fly on your own, period.. It would be too complicated to make rules to cover every scenario, so what's needed is a bit of interpretation, but that requires experience, judgement and intelligence.

Here's an example of what I mean from when I was a schoolteacher. I wasn't allowed to use one of those 18" high two-step ladders to get stuff of the shelf because I didn't have a ladder training certificate in my personnel folder, even though I had had ladder training in various previous jobs. Any training, of course, would train me not to use a ladder unless I had someone holding it.. I was, however, allowed to use a chair to stand on to get stuff off the shelf because it wasn't a ladder,.and I didn't need anybody to hold it.

Edited By Dave Hess on 10/11/2018 14:21:06

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

We have a double ladder at our field, for when trees/bushes jump out and snatch your model, you don't need a certificate to use it, but you might get a letter, if you don't put it back where we keep it safe, rules is rules.

[alex nicol]

Oh no please, not the health & safety risk assessment method statement brigade!!!!

Kidding aside, is it just me or is common sense not so common any more?

[Kim Taylor]

Posted by alex nicol on 10/11/2018 15:25:40:

Oh no please, not the health & safety risk assessment method statement brigade!!!!

Kidding aside, is it just me or is common sense not so common any more?

Ah!! The law which states that the more foolproof we make something, the bigger the fools we create definitely applies in many cases.

And on the earlier point re: certificates, the BMFA BPC is the same as an A except you can use models of less than 1kg which don't have to have undercarriage (so hand launch) and can have stabilisation.

Iirc this was brought in a couple of years ago, recognising that the hobby was increasingly going this way.

Surprising that your governing body haven't aligned with the BMFA, but I guess they have their own reasons for not doing so.

Kim

[Don Fry]

I actually agree with Dave Hess. All he needs is a few lessons in presenting an argument wot don't wind up the opposition and he got it cracked.

I'll get back to my cooking.