Foamies for beginners?

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Let's establish something right up front here - I've nothing against foam models - I own several of them and enjoy them. I think foam has been a real boon to our hobby.

OK, so having got that off my chest what's my problem then?

Well it all comes down to the fact that I'm seeing increasing numbers of beginners turn up for their first flight with a very light weight foamie. Often these models only weigh in at 0.5 to 0.8Kg or so. I know why its happening, its due to two causes: firstly they see them as a simple low cost entry to the hobby (and they are) and secondly the LMS is recommending them to anyone whose not in a club. Again makes sense - not likely to do so much damage etc. But once they have them - they then poll along to the club!

Why am I concerned about this? Again there are a number of reasons:

1. We live by the coast in the North West - it's a windy place! These models are "grounded" too often and we all know that the key to learning is stick time.

2. Because they are so light I do not think they teach a beginner to handle the inertia and mass of a more conventional model. I've seen learners (quite accomplished on theirlight weight foamie) go on to a more conventional trainer only to struggle and find its "too fast" or "runs on" or "seems to need an over heavy hand"!

3. They can't do their A-cert with these models, they are too light - so at some point they need to change over and have both the difficulty of doing so and the additional, avoiidable, expense. We fly in a public area, it is a condition of our lease that any pilot flying solo must have an A-cert - so this is quite a problem for them and us.

Is anyone else seeing this trend? I'd be interested to hear from other instructors in particular of their experiences, if any, with this.

BEB

[Former Member]

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[Allan Bennett]

We've seen a few beginners with foamies at our club, but they're heavy enough (e.g. Eflite Apprentice) to be flown in a reasonable breeze.

The main complaint I have of some of them is the intrusiveness of their electronics when in 'trainer' mode. One recent incident at our club had the buddy-box instructor crash into a tree when he took over from the pupil because the almost complete lack of manoeuvrability when in trainer mode prevented him from taking effective avoiding action. Yes, he could have switched mode, but in the heat of the moment you forget, or don't have time for that. The pupil is now on 'intermediate' mode.

All-in-all I think that foamie trainers are a good thing provided they're a decent size, because their relative robustness, their ease of repair, and the fact that they don't require the newcomer to spend days or weeks building a model, outweigh their relative lack of weight.

[Ron Gray]

Nowt wrong with the foame Wots 4, ideal training tool, ok for the A and can fly in really windy conditions. It’s not foam that’s the issue, it’s the model chosen.

[Former Member]

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[Former Member]

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[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Having taught and examined people on a variety of models from a tiny EP Cub to a TT90FS powered 80 something inch trainer, I would like to see the weight limit for the A at more like 2 kg and maybe a 48" minimum span or minimum wing loading basis, which I think reflects the level of achievement that equips people to start to progress towards flying more demanding sports models with lower levels of, or minimal supervision/assistance. Smaller models would still be more than suitable for the BPC qualification which I see little reason why clubs that ask for an A certificate for solo flight couldn't adopt, where people are happy to continue to fly lighter models.

[Paul Marsh]

Not all foam models are light, the HK lanc has to be flown, or it will stall and go in!

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

We see people turn up with foamies, not a problem for us as no A required, just a pass out needed for flying solo.

Been a benefit for us really, some go on to fly bigger stuff, some are flying big petrols now, some stay with the small stuff, we're fortunate in being able to be more relaxed about the A.

[The Wright Stuff]

I think I agree with elements of all of the posts here already, but I'm not really sure the problem is big enough to warrant a 'solution'. After all, in a club, there is access to lots of advice regarding suitable progression, depending upon whether or not they intend to progress to bigger models, or stick with foamies.

The issue only becomes a problem if people try to progress to larger models outside of the club environment, under the impression that it is a simple step up. But from BEB's original post, that doesn't seem to be happening.

The only technical query that I would have, regards the statement about the lease requiring an 'A' to fly solo. I thought the idea of the Basic Proficiency Certificate could have solved this problem. i.e. pilots who qualified on a plane under 1 kg can then fly solo, but ONLY with planes under 1 kg. Sounds like common sense to me. Is there any legal or contractual reason that this cannot be agreed with the landowner, or is it just down to the discretion of the club committee?

I am increasingly thinking that flying super low wing loading models (probably a more accurate distinction than 'foamies' and flying conventional models are simply different disciplines, like (for example) helicopters versus fixed wing, or control line versus R.C. (or fishing versus golf, if you really want to extrapolate the point). As such, then, it seems entirely logical that they should have their own achievement schemes.

[andyh]

people learn in different ways. some benefit from starting on something easy & non-intimidating with a gentler learning curve. others are better off with a "thrown in at the deep end" approach. I fall into the former camp BTW.

so long as trainees are given some assistance when making a step up to a larger/heavier model, I don't really see a problem.

I think that if small foamies are getting people into the hobby who otherwise wouldn't, then the positives outweigh any negatives.

[Geoff S]

I suppose it depends on the foamie. I would think the Riot (1.35kg) would be OK as a trainer in its supplied format (ie with the steel nose weight and recommended throws). I fly mine in quite strong winds and it offers a more sporting performance with the CoG moved back and increased throws, which makes it a good second model too.

Geoff

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Thanks for the input chaps, very interesting.

First, I totally agree some foamies are heavier (I have a foam Spit that weighs 7lb!), so foam itself is not the problem - it's the extreme light weight of these particular foam models that is the issue for us.

Our landlord is the local authority! They did their homework and say "A-cert - nothing else will do"! Beside which we don't fancy having to effectively "police" folks with the BPC if we feel that the weight of their models is creeping up! At the moment we have a simple data base that says A-cert or no A-cert - so we can check very easily and its not a matter of what they are flying. We're also a fairly small club so basically all the instructors know who has an A-cert and who doesn't!

BEB

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by andyh on 06/10/2018 17:56:21:

so long as trainees are given some assistance when making a step up to a larger/heavier model, I don't really see a problem.

I think that if small foamies are getting people into the hobby who otherwise wouldn't, then the positives outweigh any negatives.

I'd broadly agree, the down side is the look of dissapointment on their faces when you say "You can't take your A with that model I'm afraid, you need to go out and spend more money"! Often these models come with their own Tx, which we can't buddy with. When they do move up its not just a new model, its a model, new batteries and a new Tx. We have lost people at that point sadly, frustrated that they can't fly solo with their model, or simply unwilling/unable to spend the substantial extra cash.

BEB

[Dave Hess]

I fly 3 foam planes fairly regularly. They all fly ptretty well on windy days. i wouldn't say they're any worse than balsa models.

The Wat4 has really good penetration. The Carbon Cub has stabilization that's especially good for a noob on a windy day because it keeps the wings level and the plane pointing straight during take off and landing. The third is the XK 430 that's only 430mm wingspan, but it flies so fast, straight and true that the wind doesn't have any effect on it.

I also have a Thunder 180 shockie. You have no chance of flying that when the wind goes much over 10 knotts, though it's not exactly a beginners plane.

I guess it depends which foam planes you have. I know balsa planes that are hopeless in the wind.

I can remember when I used to train newbs to fly, they would bring along their Precedent Hi-Boy weighing about 7lbs with an OS 40 FP engine. They would take the whole strip to get airborne if they were lucky. if they weren't, they'd run out of strip before that, so they'd pull up elevator hopefully, which just flipped it on its back and broke the wing fixings or tail.

Everything has advantages and disadvantages. If you take all aspects of flying into consideration, I'd say it's much easier for newbs these days. It's easier to get a plane into the air and the ARTF/RTF/BNF planes fly much better than what we used to have. What you might lose on a windy day, you gain everywhere else. Light planes struggle to gain ground flying into the wind, but they gain something back downwind because they don't disappear out of sight so quickly.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

The Riot is a capable model at the bottom end of what I'd consider to be a general purpose trainer and has a reasonable wing loading which does allow flight/training in less than ideal conditions. My real concern is that models of that type and lighter allow enough latitude to encourage less than ideal practices such as cut and glide approaches, a bit high so drop the nose and the height burns off... or nose-high manouvering without the consequences that will bite once the learner progresses to more advanced models.

Let's not forget that the tests are meant to reflect a level of achievement so the models used need, in my opinion, to provide sufficient challenge and not be simply a means to run through the required elements of the tests. Certain parts of learning to fly, e.g. basic orientation, operation of controls, operating procedures, compliance with site rules etc. can be taught with lightweight foamies but I agree with the OP in that it may be better to encourage beginners to opt for the more substantial trainers both for practicality in indifferent conditions and better depth of learning.

[Jon H]

i dont like training with foamy models for the reasons discussed in the OP. When anything more than breaking wind gives them sufficient lift to land almost vertically they student just wont learn anything, at least not if they intend to progress to larger models.

I still maintain that a traditional 40 size trainer is the best option, and while i personally think that the same model with ic is better than electric, an electric tutor 40 or whatever is perfectly acceptable as the plane is more important at that point

[alex nicol]

I know we've no control of what absolute beginners walk into a shop or buy online and am also fully in agreement that the best way to learn or at least get a good grounding is with a traditional 40 size ic high wing, cabin type trainer.

I'm not against electric, I just happen to believe the tried, tested and proven over several years method is best and once it's mastered to a basic competency level you have a solid foundation skills and understanding to enable you to decide which particular route of this very diverse hobby you want to go down.

Thing is if you can master the 40 size trainer you'll be able to handle the foamies, but I'm not so sure the reverse is true

One additional point is don't most clubs have a club trainer available to let newcomers to the hobby have a try or new members complete some basic training?

that's my twopeneth worth anyways

[eflightray]

Interesting, just wondering if local birds, (the feathered sort), need to carry half a house brick just so they can fly on a windy day ?, they don't seem to here in Wales, and it can be windy more often than calm.

Or is 'light weight' being confused with 'under-powered' ?

Just about any model can be affected by turbulence, but a fairly steady wind should be capable of being handled with enough speed, (power), even by lightweight models.

But then there will always be the, "it must be built like a brick outhouse, and IC powered" to be classed as a model plane.

But then the 'discussion', about what materials, weight, electric or IC power, will go on for ever.

.

[ASH.]

Little birds don't fly too well in the wind and in strong wind they don't fly at all.

Light foaamies just float about.. so unlike a real plane! It's not real flying.

Edited By ASH. on 06/10/2018 21:59:59

[Nigel R]

Foam trainer types are on balance a good thing. I think. Different skills are taught by heavier models but a bixler or carbon cub or whatever well certainly get a learner in the air quick and cheap.

Nothing wing with the trad 40 powered trainers the uncertain bit was a new starters ability to build straight and light.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by eflightray on 06/10/2018 21:35:18:

Interesting, just wondering if local birds, (the feathered sort), need to carry half a house brick just so they can fly on a windy day ?, they don't seem to here in Wales, and it can be windy more often than calm.

 

If we had variable geometry wings controlled by autonomous flight systems with instantaneous feedback that had been developed over millions of years, we would probably cope just as well. However, we're talking about beginners who are trying to absorb those lessons of millennia in just a few short minutes and controlling from a third party view.

Edited By Martin Harris on 06/10/2018 22:23:34

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Posted by Martin Harris on 06/10/2018 22:17:00:

Posted by eflightray on 06/10/2018 21:35:18:

Interesting, just wondering if local birds, (the feathered sort), need to carry half a house brick just so they can fly on a windy day ?, they don't seem to here in Wales, and it can be windy more often than calm.

If we had variable geometry wings controlled by autonomous flight systems with instantaneous feedback that had been developed over millions of years, we would probably cope just as well. However, we're talking about beginners who are trying to absorb those lessons of millennia in just a few short minutes and controlling from a third party view.

Edited By Martin Harris on 06/10/2018 22:23:34

Ah but will they get past the 1kg minimum, and get their A.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

The Red Kites living near our field who put our efforts to shame, mocking our struggles to aviate in bumpy conditions and showing contempt at any of our attempts to thermal soar, weigh in at 1.1 kg and I'm sure they could complete the A test flying with ease. Unfortunately, they are rubbish at the mandatory questions...

[fly boy3]

I agree too with the op, but also many foamies do not have an undercarriage,and I believe there must be a take off in the A cert. Could be wrong lol. Cheers