Future balsa supplies in UK

[Matt Carlton]

Stuart: Never built it. It's about 58" span IIRC, I had a .60 or .75 2 Stroke planned for it I think.

[Callsign Tarnish]

I'm all for the noble suggestion of buying British but two things come to mind to add balance here:

First, and bear with my generalisations, society and behaviour has changed. People trying to squeeze more in have a) less time and b) less money. If buying an ARTF from the far east means you can do more with less it's naive to think people won't take the path of least resistance. Despite being an accomplished scratch builder my last three large models have been ARTF / composite because I just can't be bothered to build right now.

Second is the model shops. We cry about the rate they're closing but they just don't stock what they used to, unsurprisingly they're supporting the foam and ARTF market. This year around 80% of my fairly significant expenditure has been mostly to German shops and bit to Czech, Poland and Russia because they have what I want and excellent service to boot.

Sadly my experience is that many overseas model businesses offer better selection, better service and lower prices.

[Robin Colbourne]

Whilst a three-fold increase in a raw material price is significant, just how much of a kit's cost is in the unprocessed balsa?

The labour that goes into achieving the bandsawn, die-cut or laser-cut parts must be significant, as is the cost of bought-in accessories, boxes, plans, colour labels etc.

Whilst there will be a price increase, if the cost of the balsa is the only thing that goes up, scratch builders will notice it for sure, but maybe kit buyers are getting overly worked up?
 

Edited By Robin Colbourne on 29/09/2020 01:22:49

[Matt Carlton]

I think the margins that kit manufacturers work to are vanishingly small. Certainly at the smaller end of the market and here in the UK where production costs are already high.

Assume a kit is sold for £150, of which £30 is the raw cost of balsa. Again, assume that gross profit for that kit is £50. So there's £70 in fixed costs outside the balsa cost. Ok so balsa goes up 3x. So that's £90 + £70. That kit now loses the manufacturer £10 for each one sold, so to make it viable with a £50 profit, it has to sell for £210.

That's a 40% increase in the price that a kit maker has to charge, just to stand still. What happens to sales volume with a 40% price hike?

Kit buyers might be willing to pay a bit extra, but if the kit makers can't make a reasonable business from it, they won't be any kits to buy. The only ones that will, are those where those "fixed costs" are very much lower, and realistically, costs of hardware, packaging, energy, transport, rent, rates, taxes, wages, living costs etc are vastly different in China/Vietnam/Cambodia/Laos etc than they are in the UK.

[Former Member]

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[Doctor Chinnery]

Back on the previous page someone mentioned Correx as a building material. By its nature the material is unlikely to produce much in the way of elegant airframes BUT - my go-to fly-in-any-conditions outrunner powered, aileron/elevator Bogey ( an r/c combat job ) is unbeatable and almost unbreakable, fast as you like and huge fun. There's a challenge to our designers, cheap and strong material, but can it be made into a thing of beauty?

[RICHARD WILLS]

Matts appraisal from the kit manufacturer perspective is spot on.

The other factor is perceived value . If I converted any of my kits to a form of foam board for example(which for my own use I have extensive experience), Customers would not see it as the same value as balsa kits .

It is also ironic that the sale of traditional kits has been in decline for many years and only enjoying a brief resurgence when all of us old codgers are stuck in doors and in some cases finding it hard to obtain stuff from China.

Our cottage industries are not making much money anyway . Its 90% passion and 10% profit . But for me, if this continues it will be time to call it a day .

As many have pointed out on this thread , we are not a dot on the landscape in the world of global industry and to make matters worse , despite being a nation that has always had a passion for flight and modelling , we are all perceived as something of a joke by the rest of our nation , Germany and America spend far more on their sites and facilities and give the hobby a credibility closer to other sports . In this country we spend less ,hence the "sub standard " cottage industries with minimal overheads is the only way you will get to buy British products .

By the way , I dont agree with those previous comments. I know pretty much everyone in the trade and I admire them all , They put in maximum effort behind the scene for very little reward .

Chicken and Egg , Big buyers , big traders .

Dont expect anyone to come and save as . They will tolerate a village green cricket match with a hard ball batted through their window every week . Or a string of obscenities being shouted from the local park football pitch on a sunday morning , but if you want to fly a model aeroplane in the middle of nowhere ......

[Robin Colbourne]

Posted by RICHARD WILLS on 29/09/2020 09:17:38:

As many have pointed out on this thread , we are not a dot on the landscape in the world of global industry and to make matters worse , despite being a nation that has always had a passion for flight and modelling , we are all perceived as something of a joke by the rest of our nation , Germany and America spend far more on their sites and facilities and give the hobby a credibility closer to other sports . In this country we spend less ,hence the "sub standard " cottage industries with minimal overheads is the only way you will get to buy British products .

Dont expect anyone to come and save as . They will tolerate a village green cricket match with a hard ball batted through their window every week . Or a string of obscenities being shouted from the local park football pitch on a sunday morning , but if you want to fly a model aeroplane in the middle of nowhere ......

Richard, You are dead right about the perception of model flying in this country relative to abroad.
Back in 1993 I had the opportunity to visit the Saint Petersburg State University of Aerospace Instrumentation, in Russia. They had a whole department with professional instructors devoted to teaching the skills necessary to build and fly competition model aircraft of all genres. They treated model flying with the same level of importance as Olympic events are treated here.

A large part of the problem in the UK has been the reluctance of clubs over the years to invest in their own facilities, even when land costs were relatively low. By failing to have a place a club can call its own, a perceived lack of professionalism pervades the sport, and club committees spend most of the time protecting the rented sites they have and sucking up to the landowners, or searching for new sites.

Edited By Robin Colbourne on 29/09/2020 10:20:36

[Matt Carlton]

It is definitely a case of 'boys playing with toys' here, but there are also other issues, especially with site retention.

In my experience of talking to landowners as an Agricultural Consultant, it's not always a simple proposition for landowners.

Insurance liability rests with the landowner. Recently near me, there was an incident where a vehicle was hit with a model aircraft. Bear in mind that this vehicle was NOT on a public right of way but was pulled into a field. The landowner was found to be liable due to him giving the modeller permission to fly on his land. No criminal charges were laid, but the compensation costs were paid through the landowners insurance. That makes it difficult for farmers etc to allow 'lone operators' to fly on their land.

Agricultural subsidies and benefits are paid on the basis of land in production. If a farmer allows a modeller to use a package of land for flying, then it is technically removed from the area of land eligible for subsidy.

That may change in a post Brexit environment, but it is likely that there will be a significant pressure on farm income due to the way that existing payments are due to be ramped down to zero over the next few years.

We need to promote ownership of land rather than lease. We don't really need that much space to operate in, but we need to look carefully at how that impacts the agricultural sector. That's a conversation I may be able to have with the relevant bodies.

 

Edited By Matt Carlton on 29/09/2020 10:50:46

[Pete Collins]

Anyone remember, back in the year dot, that Frank and Graham Stanley made model aircraft kits from cardboard? Despite all the jokes and leg pulling they actually flew very well! I agree that there's nothing quite like balsa but even if it disappeared completely, we would find alternatives. I've recently been playing with 3D printed models. Still not as good as balsa but they're improving. We modellers ate a resourceful lot!

[Bob Cotsford]

Posted by Robin Colbourne on 29/09/2020 10:15:17:

...
A large part of the problem in the UK has been the reluctance of clubs over the years to invest in their own facilities, even when land costs were relatively low. By failing to have a place a club can call its own, a perceived lack of professionalism pervades the sport, and club committees spend most of the time protecting the rented sites they have and sucking up to the landowners, or searching for new sites.

Edited By Robin Colbourne on 29/09/2020 10:20:36

Reluctance of clubs to invest? Who forms, manages and finances these clubs? We do. What does a pint cost these days, a fiver? Packet of fags, over £10? Plenty are happy to sink a few and smoke (I KNOW NOT EVERYONE!) but quibble about the club fees rising by a fiver a year. Land prices mean a considerable investment if you want to own your own site.

Of course it would help if HMG gave us a hand but the truth is that as a nation we're short of land and commercial development takes priority, even if it results in half empty business parks or houses people can't afford to buy. At least it kept the building workers employed for a while!

[Erfolg]

Matt & Barrie briefly mentioned the relative qualities of spruce via balsa.

In reality the answers in engineering terms are often not straight forward. We all can appreciate that if the section is the same a property, often referred to as the "I" or "Second Moment of Area" are identical.

Then comes the bit which is all about the loading regime and relationships which govern them (such as Youngs Modulus), also down at model size with the variability of the natural materials we use.

For example in tension, spruce types are probably better than balsa, by a margin. In compression, dependent on length and loading, in very short lengths spruce is probably better, Where the lengths is greater, not sure at all.

Most of us modelers and engineers (ex in my case by, well, arguably +40 years) have always relied on Intuition and custom and practice. Then a dose of observation.

We all can see that weight is a major issue in material selection with models. We all can see that non balsa materials are often much stronger, but also heavier. We are now back to the "I" value. We can see from shear force diagrams etc, or just plain observation that the major stress in bending occurs on the outer fibers. Hence spars are best with the bulk of the material on the outer surfaces. At the middle no stresses are theoretically apparent. But we need to keep that material to the outside, hence a shear type web is useful. We all know that tubes are very strong and make best use of a material for a given weight.

Back to Corex and foam board et al, Corex has multiple box sections as an array, foam board uses a light weight cheap filler to achieve something very similar.

So why not use these materials far more. The first issue is that they do not bend well, certainly when compared to balsa. Secondly joining pieces together can be an issue. In a way judicious use of some balsa can alleviate some of the issues, for leading and trailing edges etc.

The biggest problem, many of us like balsa wood, for the properties of forming, planing, sanding, cutting and ease of joining.

On the other hand I no longer fly model gliders as composite models are better than my traditional efforts. There is also a hefty financial costs with composite models.

[kc]

Even worse news now! The Daily Mail online reports that scientists have discovered how to turn balsa into a transparent material to replace glass and it is more thermally efficient than glass , so cutting energy costs. I had to check it wasn't the April 1st edition!

So another use for balsa on a large scale. Less chance of offcuts for modelling as the process involves peeling the balsa like veneer production rather than the quarter sawing.

Edited By kc on 06/10/2020 17:28:52

[Nigel R]

Panic not yet kc, that story is "could one day replace some uses". And the glass industry might not be too excited about the news.

[Gary Murphy 1]

Is having no balsa going to be a problem? the way things are going with Covid and Covid rules , we wont be allowed out anyway OR have jobs to pay for hobbies.

[Bob Cotsford]

So does that mean the neighbours could wake up to wing shaped holes in their double glazing?

[Jonathan M]

Posted by Bob Cotsford on 06/10/2020 19:34:14:

So does that mean the neighbours could wake up to wing shaped holes in their double glazing?

Only for biplanes!

[GONZO]

Posted by Gary Murphy 1 on 06/10/2020 19:02:24:

Is having no balsa going to be a problem? the way things are going with Covid and Covid rules , we wont be allowed out anyway OR have jobs to pay for hobbies.

I agree. I would now have to cross two county boundary's to go the 15 miles to the flying site and police vans have been spotted monitoring even minor roads. Easily done with number plate recognition to determine location of private vehicle home and thus if you are a rule breaker and need to be fined. I have a large sandy beach at low tide 1 mile from where I live but even that was denied us by the police early on in this fiasco even though it is a non tourist location.

Although I believe you may have made your comment tongue in cheek I feel that as this progresses the restrictions may well become more severe and unpredictable..

[Robin Colbourne]

Don't forget this isn't gold we are talking about. Its trees which grow to between 22 and 40 metres in eight years. If there's a demand for it, more can be grown.

Provided you have sandy or clay alluvial soil, average temperatures between 22 and 28°C and rainfall between 1.5 and 3 metres a year, you can grow balsa. See page 11 Optimum growing conditions for balsa

Ok, so it is gold to us...

[Former Member]

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[Peter Miller]

And Boris has decreed that in 10 years wind power will supply every home in Britain. Think of of all the balsa filled blades that will take.

Hey! How about blade hijackers?! Pirating blades to extract the balsa wood!!

Mind you with the way the rainfall is going we will probably be getting the require rainfall and with global warming we might even be able to grow our own in a few years

Looking at the way my ash trees and other stuff is growing in my jungle I might even be able to do it next year.

[kevin b]

If the cross section of the "expired" blades, which they are currently burying, is great enough it will only take a few enterprising chinese to realise they can strip them and send the balsa over here. Mind you, some of it might have a bit of a twist in it.

[Nigel R]

"Think of of all the balsa filled blades that will take"

Almost none.

He's promised just £160mil.

This will probably pay for PWC to do some consulting, before it is all gone.

[Graham Davies 3]

It's been quiet on this lately. Once this came to light, I started thinking. And then I got unnecessarily excited!

So, rather than worry about what I can't do, I have been looking at what I CAN do. So I bought a pack of A3 foam board sheets and I have started playing...

Hopefully, this is going to end up looking a bit like Peter Miller's Rans Chaos, but at 33" span. I'm not too worried about looks, but have borrowed the approximate layout. I have a power train waiting for a model and some 500mAh 3S lipos. It will hopefully give me a 'throw about' model that will be nailed on for next year's spot crashing, sorry landing competition; Fly to height, cut the motor and aim for the flag!

So far, I have really enjoyed this process. Learning what can be done and overcoming problems is what makes building fun. And the airframe will cost less than a tenner!

Wings and rear section of the fus underway in the pics.

Graham

[fly boy3]

I am very interested in this one Graham, are you going to do a blog ? Is foam board similar to Depron.