Aliexpress and others

[Don Fry]

Quote from i12Fly, “So they have no plans to change their approach. Presumably customers in EU now have the same issue as their system of collecting VAT is similar to UK and changed (IIRC) early July. So HK have shot themselves in the foot. ”

Reality, EU warehouse to France. I bought 7 3s 2200 40c lipo batteries on Saturday. 7 because that was cheaper than 6 as I got free postage. Vat was collected by HK. Posted yesterday, will arrive at about 1045 tomorrow. No extra costs
Worked out at £12.50 a unit delivered. (They we’re on offer)

No knowledge of regulations needed, just wade through a website designed to cause depression.

BTW, the point is to stick to local. I too have lost access to the likes of Inwood models. My online Chinese food wherehouse, come to that. Too uncertain dealing with them. 

[FlyinFlynn]

23 hours ago, GrumpyGnome said:

They don't all say 'inclusive of vat'....

 

It looks like it is a 'UK delivery' thing. From what I can see everything that Aliexpress sells for delivery to anywhere in the EU has VaT detailed on the listing page but the VaT not mentioned if the delivery address is the UK, even if it is sent to the UK from the EU warehouse.  I also notice an item sent from the UK warehouse to an address in the EU has VaT applied. What a pain the UK tax situation is!

[GrumpyGnome]

Indeed!

[cymaz]

Hopefully it’s not being shipped through Dover at the moment 

[i12fly]

11 hours ago, Don Fry said:

Quote from i12Fly, “So they have no plans to change their approach. Presumably customers in EU now have the same issue as their system of collecting VAT is similar to UK and changed (IIRC) early July. So HK have shot themselves in the foot. ”

Reality, EU warehouse to France. I bought 7 3s 2200 40c lipo batteries on Saturday. 7 because that was cheaper than 6 as I got free postage. Vat was collected by HK. Posted yesterday, will arrive at about 1045 tomorrow. No extra costs
Worked out at £12.50 a unit delivered. (They we’re on offer)

No knowledge of regulations needed, just wade through a website designed to cause depression.

BTW, the point is to stick to local. I too have lost access to the likes of Inwood models. My online Chinese food wherehouse, come to that. Too uncertain dealing with them. 

So, if HK are willing to collect VAT for EU why not UK? Maybe it is a numbers thing or connected with there being an EU warehouse but no longer a UK warehouse. It looks like Banggood have sorted it for VAT, don't know about Aliexpress, I've never bought from them. From my perspective, HK can go fly a kite, no more trade from me.

[Erfolg]

Could the issue be that both EU and UK call their tax, VAT. It would clarify where the tax is going if the UK changed the title of VAT to something else, say  GBAT or anything. Then we would know with greater certainty if UK tax was being paid, or in some cases EU tax was being applied and not reclaimed when items were being exported.

 

 

[Don Fry]

2 hours ago, i12fly said:

So, if HK are willing to collect VAT for EU why not UK? Maybe it is a numbers thing or connected with there being an EU warehouse but no longer a UK warehouse. It looks like Banggood have sorted it for VAT, don't know about Aliexpress, I've never bought from them. From my perspective, HK can go fly a kite, no more trade from me.

Errrrrr, because they are in Holland. Shipping to France. Within a customs union. Sales tax collected at source. That’s what a customs union is.

If you recall, the UK decided to leave the customs union. This means they also decided to leave the legal structure that regulates fair play.

So common or garden punters like Erf and me, are buying across a barrier. Erf wishes to, but is wary about the costs and complexity . I know the costs and complexity, and don’t bother. 
 

Bottom line is, I suspect, HK is not that big. Sorting out the paperwork for the UK is not worth the trouble for a small market. I recall one of the foam board makers is no longer available in the UK, produced in Europe, ditto.

[kevin b]

Remember the old days, when if you wanted to buy hobby items you either went to the shop, or ordered from one of the publications (plus postage and sales tax) ?

Then along came the magic internet fairy, who waived her wand and you could buy from all over the world, cut out the middle man (U.K. shopkeeper / mail order company) and take advantage of 3rd world rate shipping costs.

Now we have a new world order where governments are more savvy and international businesses are a lot greedier, making loopholes more difficult to find.

We are now heading back to where the costs of our hobby are as relative as they were in the "good old days".

The only difference is that you might have to travel a lot further to find a model shop (I wonder why ?).

 

Interestingly, my LMS is now selling cheap Chinese lipos at the same price as the Chinese and I don't have to pay shipping charges !

[i12fly]

2 hours ago, Don Fry said:

Errrrrr, because they are in Holland. Shipping to France. Within a customs union. Sales tax collected at source. That’s what a customs union is.

If you recall, the UK decided to leave the customs union. This means they also decided to leave the legal structure that regulates fair play.

So common or garden punters like Erf and me, are buying across a barrier. Erf wishes to, but is wary about the costs and complexity . I know the costs and complexity, and don’t bother. 
 

Bottom line is, I suspect, HK is not that big. Sorting out the paperwork for the UK is not worth the trouble for a small market. I recall one of the foam board makers is no longer available in the UK, produced in Europe, ditto.

But HK Netherlands get the product from Hong Kong /China which are not part of the customs union, so unless there is a loophole or VAT being ignored, you would expect the tax to be added. Enjoy your advantage, clearly EU is a bigger market for model stuff than UK. 

[EarlyBird]

5 hours ago, i12fly said:

But HK Netherlands get the product from Hong Kong /China which are not part of the customs union, so unless there is a loophole or VAT being ignored, you would expect the tax to be added. Enjoy your advantage, clearly EU is a bigger market for model stuff than UK. 

Within the EU Tax is added, there is no loophole and VAT is not being ignored. The difference is that within the EU HK collect the VAT and pay it directly to the EU whereas for us in the UK the couriers would collect the VAT for HMRC. Why this is a problem for HK EU warehouse is a mystery because that is how the VAT is collected for the rest of the world and is the way it has always been done. The HK Australian warehouse is closing which makes me wonder how long before the EU warehouse closes. Being forced to include VAT must have hit their turnover, a 20% price increase in effect. HK appears to be incapable of doing what Aliexpress and others have done, apparently seamlessly, in my mind there has to be a reason for HK not doing the same. Could be that HK's business model doesn't have a long-term future? Who knows who cares if they will not be around for much longer?

 

Steve

[kevin b]

As far as I can gather HobbyKing is a Hong Kong based American company.

I think the current situation has been caused by the fact that they have been hit with a huge fine in America for selling apparently illegal radio gear (not intentionally).

The contraction of the company is typically American and will probably result in them declaring bankruptcy (as soon as the relevant parties can extract as much as possible).

I have stopped dealing with them and wouldn't advise anybody to purchase items that may require long term servicing (or replacement parts).

 

Lett's face it. The days of cheap anything are now over, so the only sensible thing to do is to prioritise our purchases (like we did in the "old days").

 

Iced brown suger, oat shaken expresso anybody ?   😉

[Erfolg]

Sometimes the loss of the LMS is put down to a lack of purchasing customers. IMO that is a partial picture, there are other very significant aspects to the demise of the MS and other niche market retailers.

 

Probably 10-15 years back I did have a LMS, it closed. Prior to its closure the owner explained to me (and probably others) why. It was not just one issue, there were a variety. The most obvious, although not the prime problem was the rent. What really was the straws that broke the Camels back were, number one, the rates for a shop (more than the rent from memory), this was followed by trade waste disposal (apparently they were threatened that just one piece of paper would lead to prosecution, and we will be watching), yet another was commercial water rates, due to having a tap at the back of the shop,  Then there was a visit from the radio/television licensing representative, that even a radio playing in the kitchen area would require a payment.

 

I now understand why so much of the UK retail trade are home based, and sometimes been rinkley shed operations on discounted (often) temporary terms.

 

As has been pointed out much, or should that be 99% of what we use in modeling comes from China. On that basis it is not UK manufactures that are advesly affected by our purchasing choices. Retailers yes.

 

As for post and packing, I understood that these are internationally agreed, for cross border activities. Amazon has shown how to run a postal service (although my Prime has just increased). It is unfortunate that the PO has not modernised both processes and practices (is it Union resistance or lack of investment in equipment?). In my working life I saw engineering move towards CAM, then later CAD systems. Those people and companies who did not seize the technology saw their companies and jobs disappear. Most were happy to keep their jobs in a contracting sector.

 

As for taxes, there is no virtue in incurring more tax liability than is necessary. The world around me has changed and continues to change, I see virtue in my attempts to both understand and adapt to how things are.

 

As afoot note my then Vegetarian daughter, saw and appreciated what an efficient business at all levels the Golden Arches were (are), when she worked there as a summer student. Did not approve then of the meat products but could see and understand that business needs to be efficient, what ever.

[Don Fry]

16 hours ago, Erfolg said:

Could the issue be that both EU and UK call their tax, VAT. It would clarify where the tax is going if the UK changed the title of VAT to something else, say  GBAT or anything. Then we would know with greater certainty if UK tax was being paid, or in some cases EU tax was being applied and not reclaimed when items were being exported.

 

 

Erf, they don’t. Vat is BTW in Holland. Vat is TVA in France. Short codes from the local use of language to get the concept of value added. Only thing to be sure, some government gets it, and for whatever reason, Hobby King can’t be bothered to register with HMRC to collect it on their behalf.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

7 hours ago, kevin b said:

As far as I can gather HobbyKing is a Hong Kong based American company.

I think the current situation has been caused by the fact that they have been hit with a huge fine in America for selling apparently illegal radio gear (not intentionally).

The contraction of the company is typically American and will probably result in them declaring bankruptcy (as soon as the relevant parties can extract as much as possible).

I have stopped dealing with them and wouldn't advise anybody to purchase items that may require long term servicing (or replacement parts).

 

Lett's face it. The days of cheap anything are now over, so the only sensible thing to do is to prioritise our purchases (like we did in the "old days").

 

Iced brown suger, oat shaken expresso anybody ?   😉

 

Tea for me please, strong no sugar.

[Don Fry]

No milk either

[Don Fry]

A bit of philosophy. The Chinese sages say the the yin and the yan are always in balance in the universe, and seek equilibrium. 
 

My wife has been waiting for delivery of a hat from the UK. She assured me the Vat was sorted. Moaning about delivery times.

So the the postie handed my batteries over. Result. (La Poste in France handles LiPo batteries)

And a 16 Euro VAT bill for her hat. 

[kevin b]

Don.

I'd say that raises your brownie credits by 16 Euro.  😉

[Don Fry]

I’d say, wallet is 20 euro lighter,  reduced to 16 tomorrow, when the postie returns with the change. Yea, I know, but this is rural France. 
 

her indoors sniffed, don’t care what it cost. Mutter, mutter. 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Don Fry

[kevin b]

I take it she was referring to the hat and not your lipos.   😁