Lamination Film

[David Hazell 1]

53 minutes ago, HENRY GELSTHORPE said:

Had a quick look at the binding box, it seems the Matt comes in 2 flavors either Matt, or ultra Matt. For the same size product the ultra Matt is significantly dearer, so any thoughts on the product differences.Could it be that the Ultra Matt would not need a plastic primer, any body tried it?.

 

20 minutes ago, Steven Hurd said:

Clear is as described, it looks a bit Matt but when heat is applied the film goes completely clear and reflects light like glass. 
 

Matt is similar looking but when applied at the correct heat, it is nearly see through, but does not reflect as much light, the surface finish is not quite as smooth, as clear

 

Ultra Matt is not clear and stays non clear when the correct heat is applied, the surface has a micron level of surface roughness to it and when applied has the looked of doped tissue. The film does not reflect light. 
 

Now how you use this for paint varies and tests should be done. We have successfully painted the ultra Matt with or without scarifying the surface. Importantly you must degrease the surface, then for best results scarify the surface mildly with scotch brite or similar, then degrease again. Scarified surfaces stuck very well to the point of damage before the paint lifted, it is the clubs feeling that paint sticks to the Ultra Matt better than clear, but I think that may be only a minimal difference. 
Non  was used with a plastic primer, I suspect this would make any paint stick very well to any plastic film. 

 

I too have been curious to try the matt, having not had massive success with getting paint to stick to the gloss. I didn't degrease - great tip!

 

In terms of hitting the sweet spot, I reckon these two show best value for money:

 

 

= £63.24 delivered.

 

 

= £32.82 delivered. 

 

Question is, is the ultra matt with more width worth the extra thirty quid?

 

Decisions, decisions...

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by David Hazell 1

[Erfolg]

I did obtain reasonable, or perhaps adequate finish on my scrap UC wing aerofoil.

 

Full of (false confidence) I had a go at the models UC aerofoil. It turned out not as good, in fact, poor. To the extent that i have stripped it of.

 

I have learnt a few things now, I think, much it from Mr. Gray. The first is that tacking at a lower temperature is the way to go. I now know that my problems with the first test open structure was a consequence of using a high temperature, in my case an indicated 3 on my (old non temperature indicator) tacking iron. I now think (as I have not redone the UC) wing was a similar issue.

 

The why, is, that at the higher temperature, the film started to shrink whilst tacking, to the extent that the shrink was used up locally whilst tacking. I also think that on the sheeted areas, that once tacked, it is best to work from a central area outwards, making sure that no bubbles are allowed to form, however small.

 

As for adhesion of paint, the bit I have done has a pretty tenacious grip. If a Scotch pad is one of the those grit covered foam DIY wall sanding blocks that is what I used. As for the paint it is I believe Johnsons colour match test containers (WW2 Light Green/Helle Grun). I am reluctant to use it as it is pretty heavy (I previously thinned it with Artists Fluidise and thinners for Acrylic paint). This model has a 5 colour body, although the wing can be sprayed. The only problem with the wing is that the WW1 green was streaky, not as the museum aircraft, apparently. I will have to pay my money and make my choice. That is unless there are good experiences out there.

[HENRY GELSTHORPE]

That is a very comprehensive reply David,based on the two examples you provided the actual increase would be( 635/475) x£17.35= £23.19 for the Matt  the equivalent ultra Matt is priced at £42.70. So  the percentage increase is  42.70/23.19 x 100= 84% increase for not much tangible benefit.I  will go with the Matt.

[Ron Gray]

1 hour ago, David Hazell 1 said:

Question is, is the ultra matt with more width worth the extra thirty quid?

IMO yes! The extra width is certainly handy when covering wings and the ultra matt finish certainly helps with paint adhesion. It is the same film that I got in for the forum users a couple of years ago.

[Engine Doctor]

16 hours ago, HENRY GELSTHORPE said:

Do you have a UK source for the Matt laminating film please?

Do a thorough search on ebay as I found a pack of two rolls each 100 plus meters long x 60cm wide for £32 inc postage , others were selling at £45 + for a single roll .

[HENRY GELSTHORPE]

Been doing a few searches on RCGroups, seems that some people are using white vinegar to etch the film slightly and de-greasing with rubbing alcohol/ is-propyl.

[HENRY GELSTHORPE]

Quote

  ENGINE DOCTOR said           

Do a thorough search on ebay as I found a pack of two rolls each 100 plus meters long x 60cm wide for £32 inc postage , others were selling at £45 + for a single roll .

Thats a good find,any body want to go halfs with one roll, would have to collect from my address Bourne lincs.

[David Hazell 1]

37 minutes ago, HENRY GELSTHORPE said:

Thats a good find,any body want to go halfs with one roll, would have to collect from my address Bourne lincs.

I saw something similar, wasn't sure if that was BOPP though which doesn't shrink.

[HENRY GELSTHORPE]

Quote

 

8 minutes ago, David Hazell 1 said:

I saw something similar, wasn't sure if that was BOPP though which doesn't shrink.

I had a look on ebay, couldn't find  the item Engine Doctor referred to . Is there more than one  type of laminating film, what type do I require?

Edited December 30, 2022 by HENRY GELSTHORPE

[Steven Hurd]

Bopp is biaxially orientated, and will shrink in both directions, it is very good for our application. 
 

Some films only shrink in one direction this is not a problem so long as you remember which way the shrink goes. I believe the binding box one is bopp, and it works fine, I can’t tell you abut the others as I’ve never used them 

[Erfolg]

Meths (link) is an alcohol, it starts of pure, it is both then coloured and a low level poison to deter drinking (that is toxic, dependant on consumption.

 

Isopropyl is yet another alcohol.

 

I use meths for cleaning, although not in paints etc, as the colourant is a nuisance, it is just easier and normally cheaper than Polyoyl.

[Engine Doctor]

20 hours ago, HENRY GELSTHORPE said:

Been doing a few searches on RCGroups, seems that some people are using white vinegar to etch the film slightly and de-greasing with rubbing alcohol/ is-propyl.

It's unlikely that white vinegar will have any etching effect on plastic ! Would you really want to ingest a vinegar that eats into plastic ? Degreasing OK  but not etching. Isopropyl alcohol will certainly degrease well and would be my choice. 

[Andy Stephenson]

Does anyone remember a chemical etchant that was a Solarfilm product. It was clear and like water, this allowed the film to be painted without flaking. I think it was called Prymol. It probably isn't available now but there must be an equivalent somewhere.

[Engine Doctor]

Yes it was  called "Prymol", Doesnt appear on their list now or i missed it. It only seemed to work on Polpropylene . Tried it on polyester covering which is a far better covering and it didnt work . as a primer the plastic bumper primer available in aerosols will probably work well. Its a clear liquid like prymol but works on most plastics inc ABS

Edited December 31, 2022 by Engine Doctor

[Erfolg]

I think we just recognise/remember that very little, if anything, is manufactured just for us modellers. Perhaps balsa cement and a very few other odd items.

 

Much of what we use is repackaged for us, into much smaller amounts. Be it small nuts and bolts (even 2mm etc.), normally packed in quantities of at least 100, at a price not much different to what we pay for say 10. The problem now is that engineering factors are much fewer than in the 70s. The same is with respect Varnish, Contract Floor companies, want gallon quantities. Or Polyurethane Adhesives which in commercial quantities would exceeded shelf life, by the time we would come to reuse.

 

I remember Clevland Discol, (link) a petrol/fuel that used Methanol as a constituent, which was in abundance after WW2. Plus the Benzine and alcohol had unfortunate effects on humans and seals etc. But quickly industrially ran down, anyway. Now back in standard fuel now, the alcohol.

 

One of our problems is that as technology changes, we can no longer obtain something. or others ,have priority, with changing times and deeper pockets, or maybe just purchase much more.

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Erfolg

[Andy Stephenson]

It's always useful to have a fellow modeller in an industry where things that are used in production or research that can be adapted to the hobby which we would otherwise not know about. This opens the way for a model business to buy in bulk and repackage for the hobby. I'm sure this has happened many times.

[Erfolg]

In the past it did help many modellers, as our consumption was pretty small as individuals, reasonable as a group.

 

Now things are very different, those of us on this forum are model builders, although we are the minority, most are ARTE or RTF modellers. The situation is made worse by the BMFA mag., which suggests that our BMFA numbers are reducing by 2,000 a year, although I hope this is a misprint and that the reduction is 200.

 

I am guessing that most of us are retired, in my case 20 years. The desire to build or sustain a business very much a lower priority. 

 

With respect to the mag, the numbers were not given as directly as I have suggested, some basic maths was required. If a graph of the Y=mx+c type an inverse proportional graph suggests that in 10 years into the future, we have a problem.

[Erfolg]

I now have had considerably more practice. I now know a bit more than I did.

 

I think I have learnt

• Using over PLA can be a bit of a problem, in that the softening  point of PLA is not much different to the shrinking temp of Lamination film.
• I now tack at a very low temp.
• I now increase the temp half way to shrinking temp, then ensure that areas to be tacked are well sealed/tacked.
• I carefully avoid any tension on the film, whist also ensuring there is no slack. Why, on shrinking the tension can produce some wrinkles, possibly due to slightly different shrinkage left.
• The film tension seems lower than Solar film.
• At a very high iron temperature the film doe not seem to burn, as Solar Film does.
• That getting the film around round type wing tips, tail plane  and fin on Fokker V29 (orD7, D8 type) I found to be an issue (others do not, so it seems).
• The film becomes crystal clear on shrinking

Also my experiences seem at odds with others where it does not seem to matter what they do and how they work compared to me. They get apparently good results. I now know that in my own club, there are people who are more adept, producing great finishes.

 

Paint seem to adhere to the glossy film with no apparent issues, at least short term. That has been over supported film, not tried open structures.

 

I am still earning, and welcome others experiences and findings.

 

Anyway here are my bits now done, now to investigate tissue covering.

 

[mightypeesh]

Thanks for posting Erfolg, very interesting. Will look forward to you applying the tissue!

[Ron Gray]

Well done Erflog and welcome to the wonderful world of covering with lam film! Covering complex curves can be a pain but it's all about practice and patience, as you've discovered lam film doesn't stretch as much as other covering films but it does stretch. I suggest sticking some to the edge of your building board / table top shown in your photos then, whilst applying heat, give the free edge a good pull and you will feel it when it stretches and you will also feel its limit! Another thing to note is that if you need a hole on the film for, say a control pushrod etc then heat up a piece of a suitable diameter brass tube and just push it through the lam film, result is a nice round hole. 

[Christopher Wolfe]

9 hours ago, Erfolg said:

 

I am still earning, and welcome others experiences and findings.

 

Anyway here are my bits now done, now to investigate tissue covering.

 

Looking good Erfolg.

 

A friend of mine gave a decent write-up of how he applied tissue over Mylar and then how he applied silk over Mylar.

It is archived in issues 257 and 258 of the CLAMF newsletter which is stored here as PDF's CLAMF Newsletters

 

Worth a read

 

Chris

 

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Christopher Wolfe

[John T]

While it is possible to use other tissues, it will make life a lot easier for you if you use tissue with a good wet strength, particularly with large panels.  Esaki or Asuka would be ideal.

I've recently used some of the new coloured Eze tissue over Doculam, which has very good wet strength. However, according to the label it's not colour fast with cellulose dope.

[Erfolg]

Thanks for the link Christopher.

 

I have a lot of tissue, acquired over a long time, the downside I do not remember what precisely I have. Just one pack of 6 sheets, that would do the whole aircraft, the rest is really just odds and ends.

 

I thought the best thing I thought was to undertake a few trials. It seemed to wet out well, but the adhesion to the substrate was, well, not great. But  pretty airtight.

 

Rather than take a risk, I have purchased 10 sheets from DB Sports. I have spent about 3 years getting to where I am. Not really working much though.

 

We will see how I get on, when the material arrives.  

[Erfolg]

I have now tissued with dope all the areas with Lamination film covering.

The link that shows the spraying of the areas with water is a top tip. It is so much easier than wetting the tissue then squeezing excess water out. There are no wrinkles at all with the spray method and the tissue goes on without bother, its a doddle..

 

As is usual, the first thinned coating of dope leave the tissue, more or less opaque. The second it becomes translucent. On drying their is a slight glossy sheen.

 

There is now a balsa covered wing to do just with tissue. I had considered using laminating film. On reflection in the past the dope seems to toughen up the balsa. The film would prevent this. Also I suspect any repairs would be harder to do with film?

 

[Ron Gray]

A nice job you’ve made of that Erfolg.