First taste of the sky

[Learner]

36 minutes ago, toto said:

Hi Barty,

 

 I dont have a problem with the instructor as such. The problem to me is there doesn't appear to he anyone with Spektrum experience or the experience to snagg out issues with the models behaviour. 

 

Everyone is well meaning but we appear to be going round in circles. I'm a bit weary of trying to apportion blame as such. 

 

Things will eventually win through, it just seems to be dragging out a bit on the wrong issues. My personal flying progression should be the source of issues not just getting a model fit to fly consistently. There are thousands of these models in their different guises, I'm sure we should have sussed them out by now. 

 

Toto

The best thing would of been go to the club first, see the instructor ask what radio equipment they use  and know, the best plane to buy and go from there. You've done what most beginners do and bought stuff thats not necessarily the easiest way into the hobby.

But your learning all the time and luckily your instructor is willing to learn with you. You'll get there but as youve realised it will take longer.

 

[toto]

I hope to be going on a reconnaisence mission tonight. All plans going well. 

 

There us an area about 5 minutes by car from me which is a disused, filled in Quarry. It's been there for years and mainly .... again .... used by dog walkers. It's not in the best of area's and used to be called .... " the gallery " used by some of our recreational drug users for shooting up amongst other things. Its reputation has died over the years. 

 

It is a very large area mostly maintained grass. 

 

I'm going to investigate ..... could be the ideal place for a small park flyer as even with walkers ..... there is abundant grass area's off the beaten path. ..... worth a view.

 

Toto

[Graham Bowers]

1 hour ago, toto said:

Hi Barty,

 

 I dont have a problem with the instructor as such. The problem to me is there doesn't appear to he anyone with Spektrum experience or the experience to snagg out issues with the models behaviour. 

 

Everyone is well meaning but we appear to be going round in circles. I'm a bit weary of trying to apportion blame as such. 

 

Things will eventually win through, it just seems to be dragging out a bit on the wrong issues. My personal flying progression should be the source of issues not just getting a model fit to fly consistently. There are thousands of these models in their different guises, I'm sure we should have sussed them out by now. 

 

Toto

I've recently changed brand of radio to Jeti and have had help on specific queries in this forum, however pivotal in my learning was the discovery of a Youtube channel that has proven invaluable. Harry Curzon.

 

I've kept in touch with your threads but can't remember whether or not a Spektrum tutorial youtube channel has emerged or been suggested. If not, that may be a path worth pursuing and hopefully there may be a structured tutorial  series appropriate for beginners.

[toto]

Thanks Graham,

 

I'll check Harry Curzon out out of interest.

 

Toto

[MattyB]

10 hours ago, toto said:

I do agree that if ever the model needed a proper range check ..... its now. However everything is rush rush. I have to go with the flow to a certain degree otherwise I could be swimming against the tide.

Sorry, but no, you really don’t!
 

It’s your model, and if it had crashed because of an RF install or RX issue, it would have been your money and time needed to put it right. If you don’t feel happy the model is set up and safe to fly, don’t do so until you are. If your instructor says “let’s just go for it, we’re pushed for time” then I’m sorry, you need to start looking for a new instructor. So many times I’ve seen models crashed in entirely preventable ways because they’ve been rushed to fly before they have been properly prepped and checked - your instructor should be experienced enough to be able to teach you practices to avoid those kind of incidents, not pass on bad RC habits.
 

PS - Don’t forgot, even if you are not the pilot in charge, it’s your operator number on the model. Your responsibilities as an operator are below - based on that if it had crashed on that first flight following the refit and injured someone, I think you’d have been the person getting your collar felt, or worse…

 

https://register-drones.caa.co.uk/drone-code/getting-operator-id

[MattyB]

5 hours ago, toto said:

I fancy one of those foam pusher type models. Nothing too big and that could maybe be flown as a park flyer. Maybe about a 1200mm wingspan so it can still be seen relatively easy and that could ge flown on 3s batteries.

 

I ront want to be buying into a whole new package again preferring to use some of what I have.

 

The fact that they dont have undercarraiges doesn't matter ...... its learning to do what I heed to do in the air that's more important. Approaches etc can still be learned without an undercarriage.

 

I have been looking but nothing has jumped outcat me yet. Budget ..... around £ 200.

 

I'll keep my eye open.

 

Toto 

The Easyglider you already have will do everything you need for this type of flying, indeed they fly much better than the Bixler type models IMO. Just get that assembled and test flown by someone else, then it can be used somewhere other than the club field once you are happy to fly it on your own.

[MattyB]

On 24/09/2023 at 19:41, MattyB said:

Sorry, but no, you really don’t!
 

It’s your model, and if it had crashed because of an RF install or RX issue, it would have been your money and time needed to put it right. If you don’t feel happy the model is set up and safe to fly, don’t do so until you are. If your instructor says “let’s just go for it, we’re pushed for time” then I’m sorry, you need to start looking for a new instructor. So many times I’ve seen models crashed in entirely preventable ways because they’ve been rushed to fly before they have been properly prepped and checked - your instructor should be experienced enough to be able to teach you practices to avoid those kind of incidents, not pass on bad RC habits.
 

PS - Don’t forgot, even if you are not the pilot in charge, it’s your operator number on the model. Your responsibilities as an operator are below - based on that if it had crashed on that first flight following the refit and injured someone, I think you’d have been the person getting your collar felt, or worse…

 

https://register-drones.caa.co.uk/drone-code/getting-operator-id

 

It seems like this semi-rant 😉 stunned everyone into silence! Apologies if that was the case, reading it back it does seem a little abrasive.

 

Having said that, I do still believe that a range test was mandatory in your situation, a) to give you the best chance of a successful flight,  and b) to fulfil your legal responsibilities as an operator. Given the work you had done it was effectively a new model from an RF perspective, so should have been treated as such by your instructor. Given he is presumably an experienced modeller, I can't understand why he would have skipped that step.

Edited September 26, 2023 by MattyB

[GrumpyGnome]

I agree with you 100% Matty........... I also expressed my concern.

[toto]

Hi chaps,

 

I think it was genuinely down to the overall rush we were under at the time. I had discussed what my objectives were prior in a phone call to which he was in agreement ( with the exception of doing the range test from 4 different directions ...... my error ) but I think the time pressure element of half a dozen members waiting to fire up their mowers was maybe an influence. The control surfaces etc were tested on both TX's but not from a distance.

 

I'm only clarifying this as I don't want to suggest it was totally with an intentional disregard to the required procedures. Albeit probably still wrong to do so. I as the operator should have insisted pr ..... called off the flight. ,maybe I need to take the lead on that a bit more. I should feel empowered enough to do that as the operator.

 

Toto 

[aidan mcatamney]

It seemed like on Saturday you were up against half a dozen Monty Dons ready to spring into action with their gardening equipment.   Hopefully next day out Toto when you get to the flying strip, that you wont be rushed for time.  

[leccyflyer]

Carrying out a range check would have been the right thing to do, as best practice under the circumstances. 

 

However, as I mentioned earlier "Least said, soonest mended". I'm a little concerned at the tone of the message that might come across in the event that Toto's instructor were to read this thread, or the other threads describing his early steps in the hobby. We should bear that in mind in replying and offering advice, which at times is perhaps not going to reflect the circumstances on the ground, at the time.

[toto]

Hi Leccy,

 

I am mindful of the possibility of other members reading my threads. That's why I do tend to qualify some of the comments I make.

 

Generally speaking, my slow progress has been down to a few issues as we have all seen. 

 

Weather has played a big part. Lack of spektrum knowledge, changes in tutors and various technical issues , some yet to be determined.

 

I don't seek to apportion blame ... merely resolve the issues whatever is behind them. I am lucky in as much as some members have bent over backwards to help but can only do what their experience and knowledge can allow them to.

 

 

Some of my posts may have been read between the lines as being critical of my club ..... and I think maybe rightly so.

 

Lack of a formal training programme for beginners

Lack of a reliable , regular, trainer and appropriate radio gear

Changing between mentors with differing techniques.

 

So .... as much as I don't want to ruffle feathers, I'm not suggesting anything untrue either. At the same time, Whilst exercising my right to be honest, I'm not condemning them and I am demonstrating allegiance to them by persevering  assuming that I will come out the other end with their help.

 

If reading these posts proves to be a little uncomfortable, they only need to identify themselves and we can have the chat. 

 

So far, I have had a couple of members who seem to have sympathy with what is going on ( privately ) and you can tell that they are not over the moon about the way this has been managed. I doubt that they would wish to be identified though. 

 

So far..... I'm hanging on in there but as I am sure most will agree, if I can't see anything changing..... I don't think I could be criticised if I were to seek progress elsewhere. 

 

Time will tell.

 

Toto

Edited September 26, 2023 by toto

[Geoff S]

When I was learning to fly back in 1995 when I retired, I was a member at Rolls-Royce (Hucknall) and we flew on the airfield (airstrip, really) adjacent to the Hucknall facility.  I had built my own trainer from a kit (as well as my radio gear) and got a lot of help from the few who also flew mode 2 but it was of the snatch the transmitter back method if I got into trouble variety.  I got a bit embarrassed to be always asking for help so I opted to pay for instruction at Goosedale.  The instructor charged £5/hour (a very generous hour btw) plus another fiver to use his aircraft (a Precedent Hiboy) and another for day membership of the club (I later joined as it was cheaper).  He used the buddy lead method if we used his model.

 

The weather in the summer 1995 was very good and I often opted to use the instructor's plane and get 30 miles in on the new bike I'd had built as a retirement reward and it worked out very well.  I passed my 'A' at Goosedale.  So it may suit you to have formal, professional lessons if there are any available near you.  The help I got at RR was generously given but I felt awkward to be always interfering with other's flying and just felt more comfortable with more formal tuition.  It was fun as well 🙂

[toto]

Hi Geoff,

 

I am as we type really, looking at other options. Not as any kind of knee jerk reaction or any way to vent disapproval of my current club but I will at some point have to try alternatives if it doesn't look like working out for me

 

It will likely be looking at other club options which I have one " ready baked " should I want to progress with a more formal approach. I'm a wee bit concerned that in explaining the move to any potential new club that it might raise questions. Maybe not.

 

I am not aware of any paid tuition near me but that does not necessarily mean it doesn't exist. That's something I could maybe look into as well.

 

There is the slope soaring alternative for which I have two powered gliders. The reason I went powered is that I have Rhumatoid Arthritis which gives me regular grief ( hips, back, knees ) and I know the exercise on the hill would be a real challenge. I've had this about 18 years or so. It was contracted through a bout of food poisoning ( campalabactor ) and I have been on immune suppressants, anti inflammatories and pain killers ever since. So slopes not written off ... but not ideal.

 

I will persevere with a mixture of the above and maybe a wee park flier and see where things go ....... I will get there.

 

Cheers

 

Toto

[leccyflyer]

FWIW Toto, none of the clubs that I've been in since migrating to Scotland over ten years ago have had any formal teaching, club trainers, or assigned mentors. It's all been very laid back. My previous clubs in England had those three things that you mentioned and at least two of them utilised the BMFA Achievement scheme and the Up and Away booklet. Things were very much more formalised and not particularly laid back. It is a huge amount of work to provide those facilities for beginners and I have heard of clubs who have to ration the number of new members in order not to overwhelm those facilities. 

 

That's just an observation on my part - I'd note that some clubs I have visited up here do exhibit signs of a more formal approach to teaching, but none of the four clubs that I've been a member of have had that. 

[leccyflyer]

Toto -the slope soaring is really just an extra string to your bow -it's ideal to be able to get some flying in when conditions are not conducive to flying flat field. Whatever you read it is not an alternative to learning to fly power, which is what you have said you want to do.  It would likely improve your skills overall, in due course, but it's not an alternative.

[toto]

Hi Leccy,

 

I re read my post there and realise I had used the word " alternative ". My mistake. I understand that the idea is in addition too progressing my powered efforts and are meant as an enhancement / in conjunction with.

 

No worries.

 

Cheers

 

Toto

[Cuban8]

 

Clubs need to be very mindful of the quality of instruction that they are able to offer. An obvious stance to take, one would have thought, but often not given the full attention it deserves. 

Getting experienced flyers of the correct temperament with the time and ability to impart a skill is not always easy, and within the two clubs of a total membership of around 200 that I'm a member of, finding such people in recent years has been increasingly difficult as time has gone on. 

I've done my bit over the past three decades and although I do miss the personal  reward of assisting  newcomers to achieve their goals, I just can't in all honesty, put the regular availability in any longer. My flying is no longer every Sunday, week in and week out, but spread out over all sorts of days and times and fitted around other things since I retired. No good for a beginner in work and hence only usually available for a day at weekends.

I do feel sorry for Toto, he's been travelling a rocky road and his experience of the hobby appears at this point to be far from an enjoyable one and more of a test of endurance that I would not have been happy to have seen any of my past pupils put up with.

I warned of 'beginners burn out' right at the beginning of this thread and do fear that given the hassles, bother and expense that he's encountered so far, his efforts may well not justify the rewards. I sincerely hope that does not happen. 

[toto]

Hi Learner,

 

Apologies I missed your last post.

 

I appreciate that I had bought my gear prior to approaching the club but ..... Spektrum ..... not exactly an outlandish brand. 

 

I bought my Beaver but I also have offered to buy absolutely any make and model that any mentor would be happy to teach me with. ... Can I do more than that ?

 

I was more than happy to be taught with their equipment but it turned out to be an issue sometimes due to its condition, sometimes because the person who was teaching me at that time ... didn't do glow and sometimes because there was an issue getting the radio gear to work.

 

I purchased and provided a complete buddy system albeit Spektrum and I have taken any let downs in my stride and licked the backsides of everyone involved with a smile on my face ...... I think I've been quite accommodating. 

 

I am still willing to go all out and commit to any reasonable request going forward ...... that excludes providing a different radio system as there is nothing wrong with Spektrum and I've bought into it to the tune of a few quid. Tolks are all to ready to blame equipment ..... especially when they are not the ones shelling out for it.

 

My opinion on that is that most RC flyers, especially the self professed experts should, with a little effort, soon be able to get their head around it. They share many of the same characteristics of other systems. The heirarchy of programmable settings and commands are similar. Whilst I am still very green with it .... I dont think its rocket science. 

 

It's just unfortunate and a little unlucky on my part. Let's see where it leads. .... the duration of the journey will be what it will be ..... but the destination shall be reached .... that's not up for negotiation.,

 

Toto

 

[PDB]

Early piece of advice my instructor gave when I started 18 months ago, join another club. His reasoning was you never know what will happen at your current club and you may find things click better elsewhere.

 

Don’t be shy about joining another club, lots of fliers have membership at multiple clubs. 
 

 

[GrumpyGnome]

All perfectly valid and sensible points toto!

 

Keep your pecker up - hopefully you'll soon be free of the shackles of instruction, and (literally) have the freedom to fly whenever you want.....

[aidan mcatamney]

1 hour ago, toto said:

Hi Learner,

 

Apologies I missed your last post.

 

I appreciate that I had bought my gear prior to approaching the club but ..... Spektrum ..... not exactly an outlandish brand. 

 

I bought my Beaver but I also have offered to buy absolutely any make and model that any mentor would be happy to teach me with. ... Can I do more than that ?

 

I was more than happy to be taught with their equipment but it turned out to be an issue sometimes due to its condition, sometimes because the person who was teaching me at that time ... didn't do glow and sometimes because there was an issue getting the radio gear to work.

 

I purchased and provided a complete buddy system albeit Spektrum and I have taken any let downs in my stride and licked the backsides of everyone involved with a smile on my face ...... I think I've been quite accommodating. 

 

I am still willing to go all out and commit to any reasonable request going forward ...... that excludes providing a different radio system as there is nothing wrong with Spektrum and I've bought into it to the tune of a few quid. Tolks are all to ready to blame equipment ..... especially when they are not the ones shelling out for it.

 

My opinion on that is that most RC flyers, especially the self professed experts should, with a little effort, soon be able to get their head around it. They share many of the same characteristics of other systems. The heirarchy of programmable settings and commands are similar. Whilst I am still very green with it .... I dont think its rocket science. 

 

It's just unfortunate and a little unlucky on my part. Let's see where it leads. .... the duration of the journey will be what it will be ..... but the destination shall be reached .... that's not up for negotiation.,

 

Toto

 

I give you ten out of ten Toto everytime for your enthusiasm and passion to succeed in this great hobby and indeed you will.  Its not in your DNA to throw in the towel just reading your comments over the last few months g8ves testament to that.  Over my 37 years and two different clubs in the magical world of RC flying, I have witnessed on countless occasions the number of trainee pilots both young and old throwing in the towel far too soon.  A lot of them packed the hobby in after their first crash.  They never gave themselves time or the chance to see what they were doing wrong and to practice and practice putting their mistakes to right.  All too often they never returned to the club and that was the last I ever seen  them.  They were just too hasty and had very little patience and were expecting to learn to fly inside a very short space of time.  As we all know as we were  learner's  once ourselves that these things take s time.  Yes granted, some people learn quicker than others , that's the way of the world, but my money is still on Toto to get his wings and to come out the other side triumphant.  He certainly is not short of panache and interest to succeed and God willing he will as he deserves nothing less.  

[toto]

Just off the phone with a contact from another club. Just waiting for some arrangements being put in place for a visit and a chat.

 

One advantage is that they have Spektrum users. 

 

I spoke with this chap way back when I started but due to various reasons, they were a bit slow to come back to me which lead to me joining my present club. In all honesty, due to location / distance, if I had to choose, I probably would have went with the same choice but nevermind ...... another Avenue opens.

 

I'll see what they have to offer. It maybe a couple of weeks but given the time I have spent to date .... that's nothing.

 

Toto

[Learner]

2 hours ago, toto said:

 

 

My opinion on that is that most RC flyers, especially the self professed experts should, with a little effort, soon be able to get their head around it. They share many of the same characteristics of other systems. The heirarchy of programmable settings and commands are similar. Whilst I am still very green with it .... I dont think its rocket science. 

 

 

 

Why should they?

I help with a bit of training and set up untill someone turns up with open tx etc. I have no clue how it works and have no need or intention to find out!

[toto]

Hi Learner,

 

I appreciate the difference with the open source equipment but I think the main manufacturers build around similar principles and platforms. I dont suggest that folks should be expert hands with them all but I'd have thought that after a bit if familiarisation, they would be able to find their way around it ..... with a better chance of success than an absolute beginner. Most of the terminology used in menu settings and the drill down nature of where to find them are similar. 

 

There will be instances where that's not the case but after a bit of general fumbling about .... even I have found my way ...... to an extent.

 

My experience in talking to clubs ( both RC related and model railway related ) is that the folks that usually grasp the nettle with regards to training etc are usually of a broad knowledge base having experience .with more than one of the systems available .... but if course .... not allways

 

I'm not saying it's all down to the mentor to know. .... and no offense meant either.

 

Toto 

Edited September 26, 2023 by toto