An accident claim?

[Diamond Geezer]

Hi Guys

Went to field this morning got me plane out ready to fly,just me and another guy there could you launch me plane for me he says,bobcat leccy,so as I launch the plane he sacks up the power as it fly's out me hand ,rips my hand to pieces straight to a&e howndo we stand with the bmfa with something like this can you claim!

Regards Painfull!!

[Dickw]

The obvious answer would be to phone the BMFA and ask.

I believe member to member cover is included, so at the very least I am sure you could submit a claim against the other guy (assuming he is a member). He will obviouslys have to report the details of the accident before the BMFA could deal with your claim, so best ask him to report the accident first.

Personally I would have thought it unlikely that you could claim anything, but I am definitely not an insurance expert. The risk is that all that will happen is the accident statistics go up a bit and make aeromodelling look bad.

Dick

[Pete B]

Ouch - that doesn't sound very nice at all, DG...

Have a look at the BMFA Insurance information page here. The Handbook, if you haven't one readily available is here - pages 10-12.

Hope it's not too bad...

Pete

[Codename-John]

Im trying to reply to this with what I copied from another site but it keeps saying my message is 168793 characters to long, its only a couple of lines ? anyway post 22 on this page has got Manny Williamsons` comments regarding member to member claims and a bit about liability, claims process etc

Edited By Codename-John on 12/04/2014 16:07:20

[Phil Green]

That style of model scares me, Funjets etc, they always have screaming high-kv motors and even a successful hand-launch is a very, very near miss. We've seen it at Ponty. Hope the damage isnt as bad as it first seemed.

Cheers

Phil

[ken anderson.]

hello DG --- sorry to hear about your accident...will you please let us know the outcome with the BMFA ins claim...

ken Anderson ne..1 .....curious dept.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

From my experience of it I would say yes DG

I'll not go into details but as I understand it from two club members

I would contact BMFA soon as possible.

hope its not too bad DG

[reg shaw]

What exactly are you claiming for? Was it his fault or a combined effort? Have you damaged something apart from your skin, and both your prides?

I don't fully understand what you think you can claim for, it was an unfortunate accident you'll learn from!

Ian.

[Phil 9]

Posted by reg shaw on 12/04/2014 17:29:20:

What exactly are you claiming for? Was it his fault or a combined effort? Have you damaged something apart from your skin, and both your prides?

I don't fully understand what you think you can claim for, it was an unfortunate accident you'll learn from!

Ian.

Here here.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I'm sorry for your accident but I'm a bit old fashioned about this sort of thing. Did you discuss the launch technique before you launched the model? If you did and the pilot opened the throttle before the point you'd agreed then you would have every right to be upset but the claim would be by you against the pilot who had made the error - who could then raise a claim with the BMFA insurance to cover his liability. If you didn't think to check the pilot's competence or lay down some ground (not a very appropriate expression!) rules then I'm afraid that you must share the blame for what was obviously a painful and unfortunate experience.

It wouldn't even occur to me to claim for that sot of injury (I'm making the assumption that there's a bit of blood, pain and some stitches involved with no long term effects?) unless I thought the pilot was being deliberately reckless. However, I understand that permanent loss of function as a result of a modelling injury does allow you to fixed compensation from the BMFA insurers.

Edited By Martin Harris on 12/04/2014 17:51:49

[john melia 1]

Posted by reg shaw on 12/04/2014 17:29:20:

What exactly are you claiming for? Was it his fault or a combined effort? Have you damaged something apart from your skin, and both your prides?

I don't fully understand what you think you can claim for, it was an unfortunate accident you'll learn from!

Ian.

Its a sign of the times aint it , theres so much crap on the telly telling you to claim for this and claim for that . Personally I dont think theres any claim to be had , as said its just an unfortunate accident , I tripped up over my mates flight box which he had put in a stupid place and bruised the tendon in my elbow , maybe i should have whacked a claim in .

[PatMc]

DG, having reading the link to Manny's comments AFAICS it's up to your clubmate to notify the BMFA & request an incident form which he should then complete & return it to the BMFA. There will be no further action taken until you, as the injured party make a statement of claim against your clubmate.

[crispin church]

you said yes to helping him

you got your hand in the way

your fault

NO claim

i had broken fingers cut hands and even cut tendons and nerves and loss the the use of my thumb in modeling

Edited for language.....

 

Edited By Pete B - Moderator on 12/04/2014 20:39:11

[Wiltshire Flyer]

Why not just accept it was an accident?
Too many people out for a quick buck nowadays.... Sheesh.. And seeing as you were able to type this post I think it's safe to assume the injury isn't too bad?

Edited By Wiltshire Flyer on 12/04/2014 20:10:10

[Paul Jefferies]

I used to have a Skyleader Delta with a screaming OS40fsr on the back and there was a definite "technique" to launching it..... ie you made sure you got your hand out of the way PDQ! Perhaps you had not quite perfected that technique? I think I would put it down to experience and either practice my launching technique or decline next time..........

Paul

[John F]

Diamond Geezer, I hope you are OK and no long term injury has occurred.

Whether you can make a claim is down to how you perceive the injury occurred and whether those at BMFA see a fault.

The issue is that you were launching a prop driven plane. When launching you know that the prop will start spinning so common sense dictates that you keep clear of the prop. No matter where in the launch you open the power there should not be any chance of hitting that prop.

Legal liability would be argued I would think.

An extract from the BMFAs' Manny Williamson from here: http://www.rcheliaddict.co.uk/main-discussions/52815-bmfa-insurance-2.html

". . . there will inevitably be times where a third party does not receive a payout for damage or injury caused by a model aircraft because no legal liability is proven on the part of the pilot, however the vitally important point is that whichever way the case goes the insured member is protected, either there will be no liability established and hence no payout, or liability will be
proven against the pilot and the insurance will respond on his behalf. This is the way in which all liability cover operates."

[Gary Manuel]

A friend of mine brought a pushy cat (similar model) to our field and asked me if I would hand launch it for him.

I took one look at it and reallised that my hand would pass close to the spinning prop as it left my hand. We discussed the launch technique and agreed that an underhand launch in a continuous flowing action bending at my elbow would result in my hand moving upwards away from the prop at the point of launch. Both parties did as discussed and the launch went fine. I would launch it again for him any day.

In other words - we did a risk assessment, came up with a safe method of working and stuck to it..

Now about whether this sort of accident should result in a claim - That should depend on whether there is any permanent damage that affects the injured persons ability to carry out day to day activities. If not, there should be no claim. Don't forget, the insurance is there for us all, if we find ourselves in this unfortunate position, but it's also paid for us all through the BMFA membership. The more claims we make, the higher the premiums will be. or the level of cover will be reduced. That's the way insurance works. We should all do our bit and only make genuine claims. The odd cut and bruise is all part of the hobby.

Sorry if I'm playing down your injury Diamond. You didn't say whether anything was permanently damaged or not. Hope you are OK and your injury is not as bad as it looks (this is usually the case) and you make a full recovery.

Please let us know how you get on with your injury and with your claim if you pursue it.

Edited By Gary Manuel on 13/04/2014 09:34:10

[Diamond Geezer]

It seems to me that a lot of you are making a lot of noise about a simple question,it was afield member who suggested I contact the bmfa ,but I thought I would ask you guys first for most of you it seems I was wrong about that, for those that have asked about my hand thankyou

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

DG - I don't think you were at all wrong to ask. And like everyone else I hope that your injury is not too serious and/or painful and that soon you will be back 100% mended.

But I do think your question raises a perfectly legitimate wider point - outside of the specifics of your particular case.

As has been said - perhaps a little too directly - we do seem to live in a age that expects that every accident is "someone's fault" and that therefore there must be redress - usually financial redress. This culture is driven mainly by the legal profession in my opinion who see it principally as a way of drumming up business. But is this good for us as a modelling community? I would suggest that it is not, for two reasons:

1. If we see a large growth in claims related to what in past times we would have dismissed as "minor modelling mishaps" then that will make the lawyers very happy - more work for them. It won't bother the insurance company too much either because, although in the short term they will have to pay out, they will get that back, with interest, by simply increasing the premium it charges BMFA. Now that in turn won't bother the boys and girls down at the BMFA too much because they see themselves as simply a "conduit" where insurance fees are concerned. So they will just add it to the BMFA Membership Fee. And there the buck stops - back with us again. So everyone's a winner: the claimant has some money, the lawyers have loads of money, the insurance company's up'ed its margin, the BMFA is unaffected. The only loser is,.....us. So we need to think about this a bit I believe.

2. The prevalence of this financial redress culture is also in my opinion what is really behind much of the H&S nonsense that is increasingly plaguing our lives. It's not the fault of H&S legislation or statutory H&S bodies as is often claimed. I believe it is the fault of this "redress culture". As a result of the fear of being sued for any mishap - no matter how minor or peripherally related to the activity in question - those responsible for events and activities are driven into an extremely defensive position. They believe that by erring on the side of being overly cautious and restrictive that they will have a legitimate and strong defence in the event of something going wrong and them being sued. This results in the plethora of restrictions they then put in place over the activity in the name of H&S which, in reality, are only designed to protect the "health of their wealth" and the "safety of their bank balance"! So the more litigation we introduce in minor member-to-member claims (just because we can) the more we invite this restriction obsessed culture into our hobby. Something else to think about I believe.

Now - to be crystal clear! I'm not talking about this particular event and I'm not taking about serious accidents where there clearly is an element of negligence which has resulted in someone being badly hurt. But I am inviting fellow modellers to contemplate what might be the wider, unintended, consequences of bringing this redress culture into our hobby and instituting claims for incidents that in all honesty 5 years ago we would have shrugged off as part of the rough and tumble of the hobby.

Just some thoughts.

BEB

[David P Williams]

Spot on BEB, couldn't agree more. I remember when the word "accident" meant an accident, not a potential lottery win.

David

[Gary Manuel]

Agree with everything BEB said.

Diamond - you still didn't say how bad your injury is. What's the damage?

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I do think that the thread title might have prompted a few of the negative comments - not a warning to other modellers, cautionary tale etc. but "An accident claim?"...

[Pete B]

It started off as just 'accident', Martin. One of the mods probably altered it to make the title clearer and reflect the fact that it's now discussing whether the incident might be 'claimworthy', rather than just seeking advice on the procedure to follow.

Pete

[Rich too]

I hope your hand is ok, and recovers quickly.

Those types of planes would immediately prompt thoughts of how are we going to go about launching this safely! I've never flown one personally. And I wouldn't expect insurance to cover it, but you never know..

Rich

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Pete B - Moderator on 13/04/2014 18:21:17:

It started off as just 'accident', Martin. One of the mods probably altered it to make the title clearer and reflect the fact that it's now discussing whether the incident might be 'claimworthy', rather than just seeking advice on the procedure to follow.

Pete

That might have affected the tone of some of the replies Pete? Possibly a bit misleading...

I'm sure that most, if not all of us sympathise with DG's unfortunate accident and consequential pain and inconvenience - probably most of us in the hobby for any time will bear building and/or flying scars - I know I do!

Hope you're healed up soon DG and it doesn't affect your flying too much!