AVC Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Peter, this is the "problem" of having the easy answer that easy: we become lazy Joking apart, I think it's a matter of common sense, although I may understand that some people feel confused. In fact, that's why they ask, isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Thomas Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 It is clear my novice questions are inexperience are causing distress for some. I'll try and hold back on such questions. Lucas and AVC are correct as to my confusion. The side view shows 1 single trailing edge spar. Not the 1/4 Spar and a strip on top. The arrow saying infill to top of rib are pointing towards the scrap blocks for the hinges. That's why I thought I would ask the question. I've read and studied your build logs and pictures several times Peter, and again every time I've asked a question and you've referred me to them. I don't feel I need anyone to hold my hand. Just a bit of guidance once and a while. Thanks for clearing up my question guys. . 👍 Edited By Craig thomas 1 on 30/12/2015 12:54:34 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted December 30, 2015 Author Share Posted December 30, 2015 Woa! I want to establish something very clearly here! Its not only OK for beginners to ask questions - the MB actually encourages it! And there is a duty (not too strong a word) on all the experienced builders involved to answer them patiently and with understandng! But my point is this thread is "jumping the gun". We are, yet again, getting tied down in details that are more probably solved during the build itself. I understand that folks are keen and want to understand - and believe me I want them to understand! But the MB is a PRACTICAL activilty - not a theoretical one. Six years of doing this (and I might be the only person who has been invoved in all six?) has taught me that the way it works is; by example. Just like leaning to fly, first we demonstrate then the beginner follows. This happens through the build blogs - not through threads like this! So, let's just be patient, wait until we see some Ballerinas coming together, and if then you are still unsure then ask. To the more exerienced - a little more patience and understanding please, we encourage questions, even ones we think may have obvious answers, even ones we think we've answered elsewhere! Remember, we were all beginners once. BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVC Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Hi BEB On a separate subject, will you open a new thread in the MB16 folder the first of January, for the proper build activity? Thanks, Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted December 30, 2015 Author Share Posted December 30, 2015 Hi AVC, the way we have done this in the past is that each builder creates their own build blog thread within the MB2016 area. So each build is invidividually documented. Of course everyone is regularly reviewing each other's progress and there is a good deal of chat (and banter!) from other builders in each of the individual threads. And anwsering questions of course where they arise. Unless someone has a radically different idea I propose we do it that way this year as well. You could start your build blog thread now! And describe what you have done in the way of preparation; purchasing power units, wood, cutting out parts, getting the laser cut kit, whatever you want to tell us about! In fact, you've spurred me on, I'll probably start mine tonight! BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVC Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Ok, thanks, I'll start by own tonight also! Cheers, Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Miller Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 I am trying to answer the questions and I do understand only too well that the novice needs guidance. I am also trying to teach them how to read plans because, hopefully,they will go on to build from plans where there is little information apart from the plan and, perhaps, some instructions. Pehaps because of this my answers are too complicated and confuse the issue. Lesson learned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 It seems that being selected as the mass build model can be a little like receiving a "White Elephant". I guess for some that understanding a model plan, is a bit of a challenge. In many respects the convention for models is a bit of a hybrid, being a mixture of being a GA (General Assembly) and some detail. The detail is generally the wing ribs. The drawing is often a compromise between trying to show relevant detail, without the details confusing the general as seen picture. Perhaps, getting into the designers mind set can help. In general designers like a spar to run as a single enterity without any break. The one obstacle can be that materials generally come in 36" lengths. The why is that a single non broken length will be stronger, than made as two parts to make a length. If a longer spar is required, then you either accept a reduction in strength at the break (discontinuity) or a piece is attached to strengthen the joint, which now deals with joint, but can lead to other issues (not worth the discussion). All experienced designers such a PM or in engineering, tend to design around material stock sizes. On that basis, the width of a sheet is more likely to be 3" rather than 3.125. Often shear webs are spaced to fit a 3", or 2" gap, than 3.625, or some other non standard stock size. The more you think along the lines of what do you think Peter would do, if some consideration of why, often clears up omissions from drawings. The other aspect that should be remembered, there is more than one way of doing anything. On that basis, even a mistake, is not the end of the world, it is often just an alternative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazza58 Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Hello chaps, Great thing this mass build malarky. No stress... easy build model...great design from the master designer. I have already started mine, not that Im going to discuss it here coz I don't want to get shot down in flames by our resident experts. (Mr Miller excluded because he really does know what he's talking about.) I can feel a little stress coming through on his posts, maybe even exasperation. Poor bloke has done his best to give us something that should be such fun and now I'm seeing stories of modellers throwing half finished models in the bin and even 'discussions' about what is the proper pilot. Now whilst I agree that the dimensions, wood thicknesses, Piano wire thicknesses are all shown, I would go so far as to suggest that I'll build it with whatever balsa I have to hand. Thus the fuselage of my model is 1/8th medium balsa and not 3/32. Why...? well because thats what I got. The undercarriage will be whatever piano wire comes out of the rack. The ply doublers are thin liteply. They are wobbly and look about the right thickness so I've glued them to the balsa and put them in a press to keep them flat. The whole point I am trying to make is that this is not an exact science yet I am seeing nit picking on a scale we should be ashamed of. This is supposed to be fun. My Ballerina will fly well. It will look like a Ballerina, I even like Peter's colour scheme. Under the solartex there may be several formers, ribs, centre section, that may be to my taste but it WILL be a Ballerina. I appreciate that many new modellers who are building for the first time would like to get it as right as possible and to get the wood stocks as published but an extra 1/32 on the fuz sides ain't gonna make a jot of difference. I am looking forward to this build getting underway and will enjoy the posts of others. However, there seem to be a few who only accept that their way is the only way. As for poor Peter pointing out that we should read the plan properly, we should be aware that we are (for the most part) males. Apols to our lady builders. Men are well known for not reading instructions. Particularly Chinese intructions. Instructions are a last resort, not the first resort and we should maybe exercise some patience for the less experienced. We all make mistakes, probably in most models we build. Most of my models have my DNA in them. Not intelligent revisions to the published plan but real blood from one or more scalpel cuts. There, I feel better for getting that off my chest. I would like to thank Mr Miller for his Ballerina plan and to the mag for publishing it. Mine is going to be a right little cracker. Best wishes to all for the New Year and I hope the MB is a success. Gazza Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete B Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Great post, Gazza! Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul C. Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Nice one Gazza, I like the colour scheme as well even bought an olfa cutter for the fancy leading edge. It could end badly as my covering as always been a bit iffy, but if you don't give it a try you will never get it right. As it was Christmas I bought all the packs and plan as I am a very slow builder thought it would speed things up a tad. Not got long to go now !!!!! Paul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Miller Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Thanks for that Gazza!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyD Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Gazza you wrote what i was thinking,nice one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted December 30, 2015 Author Share Posted December 30, 2015 Spot on Gazza! Now let's enjoy the build. Oh go on alright then, as it Christmas, on Gazza's positive note lets start now! BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanN Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Certainly some wisdom there. I too, as I suspect will many others, will be "making do" with what we have to hand or using our own preferred methods That's all part of building But let's not be too hard on those who have been asking the questions. Scrutinising plans in detail and trying to "think" your way through a build is an absolutely brilliant learning curve for anyone who hasn't done it before - surely what the Mass Build is all about? - and hats off to all who are now going through that process. I spent a lot of my teenage years doing that despite friends telling me that alcohol and girls could be equally enjoyable. I caught up with those pursuits eventually, but still enjoy eyeballing plans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucas Hofman Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Scrutinizing plans - even those you will never build - is a joy for those who not only like the result but also what is under the covering. Discovering that a designer has a unususal approarch to something, enjoying particulary good flowing lines, sometimes finding silly stress concentrations og useless weight. It is a paper and visualising experience, and for me very much part of the hobby. The joy (for me) of a mass build is that one can lift this experience to include others. Many people looking and thinking about the same design to ask questions too and discuss with. And having the designer "on-line" is a seldom enjoyed privilige in this process! I wish everyone a good build, enjoyable interactions with others here on the forumand many happy landings afterwards. Cheers, Lucas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff S Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 I've been studying the the wing drawing as I'll be building it very soon and I noticed the sheer webs are attached to the front of the spar. In every model I've ever built they've always been on the back. Is there any reason why that isn't the case on the Ballerina? Geoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanN Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Well, I suppose if they are at the front you have the added strength of them gluing to the upper and lower LE sheeting. That wouldn't apply if they were at the rear, unless you extended the LE sheeting to overhang the spar by the thickness of the webs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kc Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 If the webs are on the back of spars it prevents clips or pegs being used to hold LE sheeting onto spars. On the front allows clips and probably a better glue joint becusae of good contact = more strength Or it's easier! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff S Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 As the sheer web commonly are the last step in wing construction (if they're in the more usual position) they don't stop clamps being used to hold the L/E sheeting. I'll stick to Peter's design but I was curious to see if there was a good reason. I won't be building the wing over the drawing but I'll just draw a line for the main spar and use precut sheer web pieces to position the ribs and just use the drawing as a set of instructions. I will certainly be using Peter's method to ensure a warp free structure ... hopefully - I can make a mess of anything Geoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Miller Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 KC is right. I put the webs on the front because I use paper clips to hold the sheet to the spars. I also use map pins to hold the ssheet to the leading edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazza58 Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Put 'em on the front and the back if you fancy it. Ain't no one gonna shoot you for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosco Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Truth be told, I've been lurking around some of the Ballerina builds and I'm getting itchy fingers.At first I was put off from joining after some 'over enthusiasm' from some forumites but after having a look through some of your builds, I'm still thinking about joining in, but there's no guarantee yet.I have still to see the actual plan in the mag because down here in South Oz, we have only just had the November issue of RCM&E hit the shelves ( well....in my local newsagents anyway....) along with the Autumn special so somewhere in my grey matter, me thinks that the December issue will be here in another few weeks!!!!I think I mentioned it before..... if I was to join in, my build would be a bit different too.....like I say though, no guarantees I'm going to be joining in. Keep up the builds, they're looking good. Edited By Rosco on 09/01/2016 02:15:47 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McG 6969 Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Hi Rosco, I'm preparing myself to the build of the Bella Ballerina HD (Hybrid Depron). If your fingers get too itchy waiting for your mag, just PM me with your mail address. I can send you some .pdf files of the plans. Happy itching Chris Brussels, Belgium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 When your mag arrives Rosco, I hope you feel the urge to build it, I enjoy seeing what others come up with and how they get there. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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