The FAA demand registration from 21 December

[cymaz]

 

Our cousins over the pond have to do THIS !

Edited By cymaz on 14/12/2015 19:30:25

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Interesting comments on how the AMA trying to increase membership numbers through canvassing "drone" owners has backfired on them as all radio controlled models are now covered by this legislation. They also appear to have picked up a blanket 400 foot limit on ALL models!

[Geoff S]

I think the 400' limit is only advisory or there goes thermal soaring and probably F3a aerobatics? I fly my Phoenix 2k up to 200 metres according to my altimeter.

Looks like the quads are making hard for us all as some predicted. It seems odd that regulating model aircraft in the USA is a lot easier than regulating firearms even though there seems to be a mass shooting every month.

Geoff

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

There's nothing about drones in the Bill of Rights...

[GONZO]

I downloaded the 211 page document and also read the FG forum comments. All I can say is if something like that comes here then within a few years aeromodelling of all types will be all but dead. I don't believe it will totally disappear, rather it will become a very small minority interest. I would imagine that over the coming few years the initial costs and registration requirements in the USA will significantly increase thereby reducing the numbers of aeromodellers in the USA. The knock on effect of this reduction in the size of the USA market place(IMO a driver for all aeromodelling goods world wide) could well lead to significant reduction in the number of suppliers along with increased cost of goods from those remaining thus accelerating the decline. I await developements over the near future with doom and dispondancy.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I won't pretend to have read the whole thing but my impression is that the only requirement is to register and be allocated a number which then has to be displayed on the model. I can't see why the AMA couldn't claim to be providing this service as all their members have a unique membership number - as do those of us with BMFA membership.

The blanket 400 feet limit might well be negotiable on a per site basis as in the case of operating >7 kg models over here.

[GONZO]

Just done some more reading and interestingly this registration requirement applies to tethered as well as un tethered UAS (Unmaned Aerial Systems) over 0.55lb (8.8oz). Therefore, as I see it, CL planes and kites fall under this USA requirement. What a nonsense!

[Simon Chaddock]

The really alarming bit is that this is not new FAA legislation but in effect the exemption for model aircraft has simply been withdrawn.

In the UK exactly the same situation exists. Model planes operate under a CAA granted exemption from existing national legislation.

[onetenor]

Just not workable .How would it be policed for a start ? Regarding the 400 feet restriction how are they to know how high any model gets up to. Are they going to fit recording altimeters to every model ?

[Cabbage Man]

Ive read a lot on this on the RCSCalebuilder forum and its scary stuff.

I really hope the CAA arent as dumb as the FAA in thinking this will make the skies any safer and not create a bureacratic mess.

Time for the BMFA to earn there pay and convince the CAA that registrsation is a waste of time.

 

 

Edited By Pete B - Moderator on 15/12/2015 18:57:35

[Frank Skilbeck]

Posted by Simon Chaddock on 15/12/2015 00:37:26:

The really alarming bit is that this is not new FAA legislation but in effect the exemption for model aircraft has simply been withdrawn.

In the UK exactly the same situation exists. Model planes operate under a CAA granted exemption from existing national legislation.

No we don't here's the first line from CAP 658 "The Civil Aviation Authority is empowered to regulate all civil flying activities over the United Kingdom, including model aircraft." Yes we've been exempted from a lot of the ANO order but have specific clauses applicable to model aircraft (all in the BMFA handbook).

That's why the CAA has been able to prosecute fliers who flout the laws, whereas in the US the FAA hasn't been able to because they are exempt. The US has a lot to thank Trappy for who got his prosecution thrown out on that basis, not that he was flying safe, but that the FAA rules didn't apply to model aircraft.

All the rules governing FPV in the UK have been drawn up by the CAA and we've to thank the BMFA and other specialist bodies that we've managed to keep them reasonable.

Edited By Frank Skilbeck on 15/12/2015 08:46:16

[Frank Skilbeck]

Posted by Electric God on 15/12/2015 08:38:56:

Time for the BMFA to earn there pay and convince the CAA that registrsation is a waste of time.

What convince them that something that hasn't been proposed is a waste of time. Bit like writing to your local council objecting to having speed bumps in your road when there are none planned. BMFA has worked with the CAA to get the regulations on FPV loosened to allow a spotter rather than have the FPV flier on a buddy lead.

[AVC]

Posted by GONZO on 14/12/2015 21:03:01:

I would imagine that over the coming few years the initial costs and registration requirements in the USA will significantly increase thereby reducing the numbers of aeromodellers in the USA.

Hello Gonzo

Why do you think that the registration costs will significantly increase? Is there anything in the document that indicates that possibility? I must admit I haven't read the document, just the first page on the FG forum, but the cost mentioned there is 5$.

My concern is that if you are right, the same scenario will come to Europe in a while, and we are already enough threatened with laws, regulations, bylaws etc related to security, sound pollution and so on.

By the way, I don't understand why there has to be a cost associated to the registration...

[Peter Miller]

I wonder how many people remember that we used to have to pay for a licence to use radio control. I think that it lasted for 5 years but I could be wrong, it is a long time ago!

As for the American system. Yes! I can see every kid or even dad buying a drone for Christmas actually registering it, especially f they have to pay for the priviledge.

They might as well order everyone to register their pigs and put a number on the side before flying them!

[GONZO]

Costs and probably requirements will increase because thats the way the world works. A bit of empire building and self interest of those that administer the system. Remember VAT, started at 12.5%(or was it 15%) and now its 20%; no VAT on gas and electricity then it went on and has now climed to 5%; insusrance premium tax etc etc. If you want to get something established you start low(below your optimum cost), so there are not to many loud dissenting voices, then gradually ramp it up. Old saying "softly softly catchy monkey". Once established you can use the system as a tool to generate revenue or to control or both.

The associated cost is due to it having to be self financing ie cost of computing systems for managing data base, staff cost etc

[GONZO]

Peter, yes I remember the RC licence. I also remember that you required a licence for a domestic radio and another one for a radio fitted in your car(up until sometime in the 70's I believe).

[ken anderson.]

Posted by GONZO on 15/12/2015 09:25:10:

Peter, yes I remember the RC licence. I also remember that you required a licence for a domestic radio and another one for a radio fitted in your car(up until sometime in the 70's I believe).

...............................................................................................................................................................................................

who remembers the dog licence... for old shep...and there was nothing a matter if you were caught without one......................... times have changed vastly...for better/worse who know's..... in 1977 my brother had to attend the local court and was fined £20.00 for using a pedal cycle without lights and defective brakes.... .... the local bobby was on commision i think..

ken anderson...ne...1.... sorry -off topic dept.

[Cabbage Man]

Frank,

By the time anything like a registration scheme is even proposed in the corridors of whitehall, the main decisions and discussions will already have been made. Its the way law makers work. You dont go public unless your reasonable sure of success. White papers and consulation documents are just a talking shop as they are free to ignore the objections raised. See HS2 for a classic example.

You have to be ahead of the curve and speaking to them now to ensure the CAA is well aware of the pitfalls of a similar scheme , just in case the "special relationship" we have with the US results in pressure being put on us to help fight the scum that is control line combat flying, sorry terrorism.

[GONZO]

CL combat flyers are one thing but don't forget those devilishly cunning kite flyers!

[Shaunie]

The problem with anything like this is that it gives legitimate users another layer of bureaucracy to mine through whilst the law-breakers carry on as before, either in ignorance or malice. As with any law it's about enforcement and these people will quite rightly say "so? they've got to catch me first!".
As always it will have an impact on the innocent without effectively providing any real detterent effect at all. All it does is give the legislators a warm fuzzy feeling that they are really making a difference.
Using handheld mobiles in a vehicle while moving has been illegal for ten years now but you'll still see yummy mummies and van drivers with their phones under their chins going down the road. This is happening on the high street under the noses of the Police, most drone offences will be in the air over someones garden.

And I've still got my Wireless telegraphy licence, it was a licence to transmit though, nothing to do with the flying bit.

End of rant.

Shaunie.

[Engine Doctor]

And the fiendish rocketeers and balloonists ! But lets be careful as a parlimentary/ whitehall buffoon may not get the joke !

[Cuban8]

Just wait until the dead hands of the EU bureaucrats start to get their fingers twitching when they feel the need to justify their existence again. It's all gone very quiet with them on the 'caravan MOT' front, so when they're bored with that, small unmanned aerial vehicles (model aeroplanes to you and me) will fit the bill just nicely for a bit of EU regulation that we will be able to do nothing about.

[Peter Jenkins]

As far as I understand it, EASA (the European equiv to the FAA) has delegated to national airworthiness authorities to relinquish control over airworthiness issues to manufacturers for aircraft below 400 Kgs. There is already one aircraft flying, Ego, that has been developed by a UK manufacturer without input from the CAA. Admittedly it is only around 140Kg AUW but the CAA is showing that it is willing to take a risk to encourage light aircraft development.

The current documents that cover model aircraft flying in the UK, the ANO and CAP 658 have been amended to reflect the use of so called drones and this advice has been developed with input from, amongst others, the BMFA. The BMFA Handbook reflects the salient parts of the ANO and CAP 658 although it is currently in the process of being updated.

[Daithi O Buitigh]

Not just kites and control line but tow-line launched gliders (F1A) - not omitting the inverted snobs who insist that single channel isn't really radio control but 'radio assisted free flight' (strange thing- when I started it was almost all single channel and we did call it 'radio contyrol'

[Tony Richardson]

I think Shaunie has it right, without enforcement its just words on paper, many years ago when firearm registration was beginning here in Canada I was at the local RCMP detachment picking up my required permit and having coffee with the detachment Sergent and I posed the question does this really make a difference, his reply was you cannot legislate good behaviour, if by some miracle we could eliminate all firearms in Canada today I guarantee the bad guys will have some from somewhere within a week, it is the same with cell phones there is a law here that forbids the use of handheld devices while driving but I see this law broken every day, if it comes here as well it may it will be just an other layer of red tape for the honest modeler to wade through.