cymaz Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share Posted December 20, 2015 Posted by GONZO on 20/12/2015 18:58:23: Draft European document on the harmonisation of air regs EASA A-NPA 2015-10 **LINK** Enjoy Sorry, here above is the link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cymaz Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share Posted December 20, 2015 Posted by Steve J on 20/12/2015 20:46:18: Posted by cymaz on 20/12/2015 20:06:39: So what's the BMFAs stand on all this.....could we have a reply or statement somewhere? According to a post on this subject on another forum, CAP 658 will be reissued in the near future "essentially leaving things as is for model aircraft flyers". We shall have to wait and see. Steve I hope that's the case Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GONZO Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 ChrisB, I think not. I suggest you read the draft European regs and the Irish regs(which have obviously been based on the European regs but tightened up). As I've already said its got nothing to do with how good and safe you've been. But, everything to do with the commercia/financial imperative and the European rule makers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly boy3 Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 Mirror 19/12/15 page7 "Transport minister Robert Good, We are looking at a range of options including registration as well as the licensing of drones " Toy drones could need licences before they are flown under plans being examined by ministers. The CAA already keeps checks on all commercial drone flights. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisB Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 Gonzo, I've read both reg's and there's nothing to suggest that the CAA will require registration. The European regs do distinguish between model aircraft that have been established for many years and drones that are new. If i'm right, the image they use of the Iberia aircraft with a drone approaching was created by an idiot creating a spoof video of the wing tip being ripped off. As for the 'story' in the Mirror, well, the fact its the Mirror, says it all. The story doesn't actually say anything news worthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GONZO Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 ChrisB, there was nothing to suggest the Irish action. So why do you think here would be any different. After all 'for warned is for armed'. Why would the establishment give the game away. There is plenty to imply that things will change here at some time in the draft Euro regs, unless we leave after the referendum! Also, all the well behaved and safe model flyers were treated the same as everyone else with the Irish national blanket regs. So, why the belief that exemplary behaviour buys anyone any special treatment? If you wish to continue to believe that everthing will carry on as it is and take no notice of the warning signs of what may happen here then I'm sure you will not be alone. This is what the establishment want to see, modellers argueing amongs themselves, it further weakens an already perilously weak position. It is a pointless and futile action. Just take note of what is going on around you and be prepared for the potential future changes, there is little else you or anyone else can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabbage Man Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 That quote from the SOS is worrying. Why would a government suddenly go on the offensive over a recreational toy thats made a few headlines ? Its complete overkill . I can only conclude the airspace from 400ft and above will soon be up for sale and like the 4g phone network will generate billions for the treasury through licencing. Gonzo is right, our past good behaviour wont stand up for much in the face of commerical interests for an " emerging ( and taxable) industry". The BMFA are going to have to work very very hard to keep our recreational interests left unaffected. If they do manage to keep the hobby active and not heavily restricted by height conditions etc, Id be very impressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Privett Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 If the "plan" is to sell off airspace above 500 feet (up to what? Say 1,000 feet?) then there are of course other users apart from us model flyers that would get in the way. And somewhere in that Euro document I'm sure I saw an acknowledgement of that and a statement that any such traffic would need to be avoided by "drones". The other traffic legitimately found at low level includes General Aviation (GA) as well as police and air ambulance helicopters. GA will generally not fly lower than 500 feet apart from landing/take-off, but police/ambulance helis might. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GONZO Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 I am very surprised that there has been no input to this discussion from a representitive of the BMFA. When the National Flying Center/Site was being discussed there was input then. I wonder if a phone call to the BMFA would get us any more information? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Colbourne Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 I wonder how many of the reports of low flying full-size aircraft near well-established flying fields are simply because they don't know you are there? I'm in a gliding club with operates from a military airfield. At the start of each day we get a pack from flight operations which amongst the NOTAMS (notices to airmen) details all sorts of activities in the local area, such as pheasant shoots etc. Contacting any airfields and air strips in, say a 15 mile radius of your club site to say, 'We are here and operate from between 9am & sunset on (days), doesn't guarantee they won't fly over you if you're in uncontrolled airspace, but at least they can mark you on their air maps as a good place to avoid. Why not contact the airfield manager at a few local airfields and see if they are aware of you? A lot of full-size fliers are current or ex-model fliers. A friendly approach before there is any conflict can make life better for everyone. If you have a member who is also an experienced full-size pilot and has a congenial personality, they would make a good liaison. Whilst this will do nothing to stop irresponsible flying of drones etc, it will stop the figures being added to by easily avoidable events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Privett Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Posted by Colin Carpenter on 20/12/2015 18:17:25: Gonzo - I think you are correct. Our carefree days are numbered . Being in a field in the middle of nowhere will count for nothing. This morning ,an awful day really, saw 3 light aircraft over my field all reasonably low , say 250 feet, in less than an hour. If they're flying that low then (unless they are taking off or landing) they themselves are in breach of the ANO. Whilst they may fly below 500 feet altitude, they must remain 500 feet clear of any person, vessel, vehicle or structure - which at 250 feet above your field they could only do if the field was empty - which, as you were, clearly it was not! Of course, if they were landing or taking off, then that puts your flying field right next-door to the full-size field - which I assume it isn't! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Carpenter Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 John - I have no means of measuring altitude but 2 were certainly transiting at a height we fly at. Thankfully we can hear the fixed wing coming in time to descend and helis epecially Chinooks and Merlin's . We are nowhere near airfields but I don't know about farm strips. Very rarely do we have gliders up high as most of us fly aerobatic types.Colin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 I have been thinking along the same lines as Gonzo, that it is the poor communication (I hope) with the membership, indicating that there is ongoing dialogue with the CAA and the appropriate set of politicians of all hues. Although i would expect that many of the communications of the BMFA being of a routine liaison type relationship. At this time, I would expect that the BMFA is rather more active in this area than usual. That is both internally as well the routine activities. You would expect some workshops to identify the threats, from where, who are the powers behind the scene/headlines. A programme of what needs to be done, when and by whom. The plan "A" and plan"B". All these things will of course have changed with time and events. At the very least the BMFA could and should keep us informed in outline, as they manage with safety related events, where I know when little Johnny cut his finger on paper (being facetious). Many have contributed to a broad understanding of potential threats and fro where, again some comment from the BMFA. If not on this site, then in there official magazine or their own site. Although I suspect that this site is more widely visited, so perhaps both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 I would rather sit patiently and leave the BMFA to get on with looking after our interests myself, I've no idea what/if changes are coming but I trust them to do their best. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bran Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Posted by Robin Colbourne on 21/12/2015 13:37:54: I wonder how many of the reports of low flying full-size aircraft near well-established flying fields are simply because they don't know you are there? Been there........but not with the model. I did a flight in a Tiger Moth (which I flew for a while). Before I took over the pilot was heading quite low towards a well known (to us) model slope soaring site. I pointed this out, and his reaction was "bloody hell, I have flown here low for years and never knew", followed by some very rapid (for an old Biplane) readjustment of height and position!! He then asked me to show him the normal height and range flown from there. After we landed he thanked me for pointing out the fact and interestingly said that he would discuss it with his fellows from the airfield as "the sky is a big place and "we" (full size) can easily allow space for models if we know". I read him as genuine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Jarvis Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Our flying site is just outside a small town (pop 8000). About 2 years ago I was flying a Mentor with a video camera on it and believe I was much less that 400ft when two Tornados flew past about 1/4 miles away and they were much lower than me. I still have the video but unfortunately it was facing away from the Tornados. This year whilst flying at the same site two Hercules transport planes appeared from nowhere. One flew directly over our field at no more than 250ft the other one was about 400 yards away same height. We are nowhere near any military base. Do we need a NOTAM for 400ft? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Colbourne Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Aircraft can legally fly below 500ft above ground level provided they are 500ft away from persons, vessels, vehicles and structures: **LINK** So, if you are operating in a field away from houses and major roads, you could easily be in the field that a pilot selects for a practice forced landing. Psychic abilities are not part of PPL training, so unless the pilot has spotted you, your model or your car, he will assume its an empty field. Your local airstrips can be found here (a couple of years out of date, but its better than nothing): **LINK** There are also numerous hotels, golf clubs and private houses that have helipads, even if no helicopters are based there permanently. Alan Jarvis, like you I have seen some very low Hercules. Driving south along the A3 near Petersfield, Hants, one flew over well below 500ft. Low flying keeps military pilots alive in wartime, so they need to practice at every opportunity. IMHO, you don't NEED a NOTAM for flights up to400ft above ground level, but letting the CAA & military know that you have an established flying site there would be wise (Check an air map first for controlled air space etc. to avoid any red faces!) NOTAM website here: http://notaminfo.com/latest Edited By Robin Colbourne on 21/12/2015 17:27:02 Edited By Robin Colbourne on 21/12/2015 17:32:38 Edited By Robin Colbourne on 21/12/2015 17:36:08 Edited By Robin Colbourne on 21/12/2015 17:42:34 Edited By Robin Colbourne on 21/12/2015 17:43:40 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff S Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 We were getting regular low flying over our airfield from a Tiger Moth being flown from a local airfield and taking people up for joy rides. Despite friendly approaches from one of our members who has a PPL and his own Cesna the pilot was somewhat uncooperative. We now have a permanent NOTAM up to 1600' agl IIRC and he keeps away or high. Pity really. It seems some full size pilots have a degree of contempt for model flyers. I'm not sure why. Geoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Colbourne Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 It seems some full size pilots have a degree of contempt for model flyers. I'm not sure why. Geoff, Some people just are just obnoxious, and unwilling to find a way to which accommodates everyone's needs. I've seen it in model clubs between R/C, control line and free flight, and in hang gliding clubs between hang glider and paraglider fliers. Microlighters used to be treated the same way by spamcan fliers, although these days so many PPLs have trained on microlights that there is a bit more understanding. It sounds as though in the case you state that the Tiger Moth pilot shot himself on the foot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Miller Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 I see on an American Forum that all the data, names, addresses etc will be available to anyone who want to search for it. That is causing lots of worry and fury and promises of non compliance. Worries that anyone can put your number ona model and calim that you are sooping on them etc. I did think of a lot of comments but decided that it wasn't worth it. Seems that the Americans do not have a data protection act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Colbourne Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Peter, That's something any full-size G-reg aircraft owner has to put up with already. Just search G-INFO on the CAA website to find present and past owners. Maybe its to discourage low flying... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff S Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Posted by Robin Colbourne on 21/12/2015 18:46:18: It seems some full size pilots have a degree of contempt for model flyers. I'm not sure why. Geoff, Some people just are just obnoxious, and unwilling to find a way to which accommodates everyone's needs. I've seen it in model clubs between R/C, control line and free flight, and in hang gliding clubs between hang glider and paraglider fliers. Microlighters used to be treated the same way by spamcan fliers, although these days so many PPLs have trained on microlights that there is a bit more understanding. It sounds as though in the case you state that the Tiger Moth pilot shot himself on the foot. Yes, he did. When I flew full size gliders in Derbyshire the club realised that we had to share the slope with hang gliders and invited them to use the club facilities for meetings even though they tended to use a different part of the slope from us. It all worked very well. I know when I was flying in a snug cockpit in winter I wondered how the hang glider pilots survived the cold. Geoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cymaz Posted December 21, 2015 Author Share Posted December 21, 2015 Posted by Peter Miller on 21/12/2015 21:12:31: I see on an American Forum that all the data, names, addresses etc will be available to anyone who want to search for it. That is causing lots of worry and fury and promises of non compliance. Worries that anyone can put your number ona model and calim that you are sooping on them etc. I did think of a lot of comments but decided that it wasn't worth it. Seems that the Americans do not have a data protection act. More info on this here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 There has been some excellent research by individual members on this forum, building up a comprehensive image of what is happening in other countries, such as the very influential USA and the discussion papers in the EU. I expect that the BMFA are also plugged into all these sources. For us hobby aeromodellers, it does appear at first sight that we have a lot in common with the commercial operators of quads/drones. I expect that there is a trade body that represents this general group, although i do no know if this is so. Yet the more i consider this aspect of the issue, the more concerned I am that this grouping has more to gain from an association with us, than we have with such a grouping. Our excellent record with respect to fixed wing operations is a powerful argument with respect to adherence to regulations and laws. The down side is that most if not all issues with respect to drones/quads has been with hobbyist operators. Registration fees that appear to be high for us modellers, are trivial to a commercial operator. Particularly in that there cost base compared with manned aircraft operators is a very low fraction. It could be issues such as these where commercial operators could be our allies today, and that a set of agreements reached that are more favourable to the commercial aspect than the hobby, if our own self interest is not recognised in full and the long term ramifications, that is as far as they can be anticipated. I am totally against any idea that to operate a quad/drone or fixed wing model must register or be a member with the BMFA. There is a lot of general info that the BMFA could provide the membership with, in the vain of general chit chat. Edited By Erfolg on 22/12/2015 11:07:24 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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