Kit builders, what would you like???

[MattyB]

Posted by Bob Cotsford on 25/04/2016 16:51:12:

In terms of 'what is missing from the current range that would sell in any numbers' I think that the F4U, P40, P47, Zero and FW190 are the missing icons. Next would come the likes of the Tempest/Typhoon/P36/Stormovik and other less well known WW2 single engine types, then between wars items like the P26 and the Hawker, Fiat and Curtis bipes.

Yep, I would tend to agree - and with Hangar 9 seemingly disappearing from the balsa warbirds arena at a rate of knots some of these suggestions might have a more ready market. Whilst I like some of the twins suggestions made in this thread (particularly the Beaufighter), I am still very sceptical of how many would actually be sold - the additional cost and complexity of two engines/motors (and bigger batteries for the electric versions) would seem to make them more of a niche item compared to the singles.

Nah, it's gotta be a Sturmovik all the way...

[onetenor]

What about some of these

https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=experimental%20german%20jets

[RICHARD WILLS]

There have been some very good points put across . In a nut shell it boils down to this .

There are hardly any kit manufacturers still standing , Warbirds does not have much in the way of overheads and consequently is very efficient . So we can hang in there when others cant .

However, the work involved in making a new kit is substantial so it is important to know as rule of thumb that there are about 30 people who are willing to seriously consider one. That would hopefully assume that others would buy and keep it going when they found out about it some time later.

Quite a few years back , Ron Daniels in Canada made a very pretty 48" span Tempest for electric power and it developed a bit of a cult following . After a few years he realised it was just too mush hassle for the small reward and shut up shop .

About ten years later a group of guys badgered him to make some more and he flatly refused .

Eventually he said " to make it worthwhile I need firm orders and deposits for 25 "

They rallied their pals and the Ron did as asked . They were over the moon , Ron shut the door again.

I dont feel comfortable asking people for deposits , But if customers and small manufacturer dont try to see things from both sides , everyone will lose out.

To a degree we can come much nearer to what you want than the big companies and with Laser cutting and 3d printing the quality is spot on . But when you ask for something consider this , can I get any of my pals excited too ? If you cant then you are possibly about to put one of your few kit manufacturers out of business , since you may be asking for something that will sell a total of 2 kits .

I like the IL2 but how many will we sell ? Tempest ? Well I guess the above story is quite a good sign , 65" laser cut Tempest with MkII and Sea fury of the back of it would cater for quite few.

Then there's the Whirlwind for the twin , Not done by TN , Comes up in conversation a fair bit over the years .

You know there is a thread for the Ju88 . Its a great plane but at the moment only a handful of people have enquired about it . Does that inspire me to make another twin ?

So in many ways the future kits for you proper builders is in your hands , hence the thread .

As with all things , be careful what you wish for .

I do value your comments so keep them coming.

Richard

[David Davis]

I will give you a deposit for an IL2.

[RICHARD WILLS]

Yes , and I would have to give it back David . The price of choosing something of exclusive interest to you and few others is apparent if you look at the price of the Sky shark Il2 . Shame really . It would be a great flyer .

How much do you want one ?

No point in going head to head with skyshark .

Richard

[Jon H]

I cant really disagree with whats already been said here. An il2 would be a superb model, it would fly well and be really interesting but, I wouldn't buy one. I like the il2 and I know its pedigree etc, but as a model it dose not do it for me.

I also would not personally buy a seafury as I already have one, but a tempest? sure that sounds good. and as the full size seafury and tempest shared a lot of components the models could as well so a tempest II, V and a seafury could all be kitted from the same wing (with a bit chopped off for the seafury) which would be ideal as it would broaden the appeal of the kit. This is of course assuming enough interest could be achieved to get the ball rolling.

I really want a whirlwind, and the idea of convincing some friends to get one and 3 of us hoon around in a simulated channel dash is really appealing. I don't see the complication factor being a big issue as its either 2 engines, 2 tanks, 2 servos and a y lead or 2 motors, 2 esc's, 2 batteries and a y lead. Its not a big deal really.

[lightning 759]

You know there is a thread for the Ju88 . Its a great plane but at the moment only a handful of people have enquired about it . Does that inspire me to make another twin ?

So in many ways the future kits for you proper builders is in your hands , hence the thread .

As with all things , be careful what you wish for .

I do value your comments so keep them coming.

Richard

been watching that thread with great interest I have the plan & parts for the traplet one but would far sooner go with yours , have you any ideas how much it will cost ????

andy

[David Davis]

If Sky Shark offer an IL2, I'll put in an order for one Richard.

It seems to be that the nub of the problem is that there are plenty of people who would like to fly a Spitfire, Bf 109, Tiger Moth, FW 190, P47, Stuka, Zero, or P51D, however, there are a large number of kit producers which offer these models.

Second string options include the Tempest, Typhoon, P51B, Harvard, Corsair, Gladiator, perhaps some of the more successful twins like the Mosquito, HE111 and Ju88, increasingly powered by electric motors these days, and the Soviet fighters.

After that you are left with aircraft like the IL2, the Avro Anson, the Swordfish and others which are a minority interest and not worth tooling up for.

I don't envy you your problem Richard.

[will -0]

Well if I really can't have an IAR 80, then I suppose I'd absolutely love to be able to get a decent kit of a whirlwind.

 

Another way of looking at it would be to see what's round the corner in full size warbird land. Nothing like seeing an actual tempest fly to get peoples desire for a model going. (though I suspect that particular pleasure is still many years off!!)

Edited By will -0 on 26/04/2016 08:39:42

[will -0]

PS I'd put a hefty health warning on the whilwind, much as I love that aircraft. It's not so well known as other twins (being essentially extinct) and probably has a limited if enthusiastic following.

[RICHARD WILLS]

Youve got it David . If you look at all the build forums round the world , you can see the same people posting all the time . The reality is that there are not many of us left . On the bright side , the laser cut Spitfire attracted new people to the building side of the hobby which we had not really seen before. That may be unique to the draw of the Spitfire . Hardly a week goes by without a film or documentary.

Andy ,The 88 will show us how feasible a series of twins would be , The price for a proper kit will be £179 .

We will also offer all of the parts that people find hard to source , like proper spinners (not vac form) props and motors , plus retracts that are tough and dont require a bank loan,

Its a shame more people dont have a go at twins, Its never been better . With the electric motor system from our Spitfire and decent retracts , it really brings some wow factor for reasonable outlay and effort.. It makes a change to fly the heavies too . I'd always been a bit of pretend fighter Jock , I guess we all are , but there is something about those big "destroyers" that the single engined fighters dont have .

The 88 uses the same batteries as the Spitfire so its a practical and cheap set up that means I can take both models but with one set of packs . The other advantage of the twin is that you get 5mins on the Spitfire but thanks to the shred effort on the twin , 7 mins is the norm. Same pack . (but two of course).

[Bob Cotsford]

Posted by john stones 1 on 25/04/2016 17:37:11:

Short kit sounds good to me frankly, and by that I mean no sheeting/ spars, all the cut parts yes but I have all the sheeting in stock, when you start looking at selling kits there's plenty about who need to spread the cost a little, getting the cost down increases the opportunity for me buying and the seller making a sale.

John

You missed one big plus regarding short kits John. You can select appropriate wood for it's purpose, something a lot of kit manufacturers (and laser cutters) didn't seem to bother with.

Hopefully Richard would be a bit more selective though.

[Bob Cotsford]

Posted by David Davis on 26/04/2016 07:00:53:

It seems to be that the nub of the problem is that there are plenty of people who would like to fly a Spitfire, Bf 109, Tiger Moth, FW 190, P47, Stuka, Zero, or P51D, however, there are a large number of kit producers which offer these models.

Second string options include the Tempest, Typhoon, P51B, Harvard, Corsair, Gladiator, perhaps some of the more successful twins like the Mosquito, HE111 and Ju88, increasingly powered by electric motors these days, and the Soviet fighters.

The issue I see with the existing offerings is that for the most part they are ARTF or complex build kits. I have a couple of TopFlite kit's in stock, but they are complex, long term builds.

The Skyshark IL2 is nigh on $400, what's that, $300ish plus carriage and VAT? I'd be tempted if it was half that.

Go on Richard, I'd be up for a Tempest sized for either .90 or 1.20 four stroke. As per Jon, the drawing could show mods for MkII and Sea Fury, maybe you could even offer alternate cowls? Me - it's all about the chin!

[Dave Hopkin]

If we are looking at kits that would sell in quantities of more than one or two we have to stay in the mainstream of modelling. which to me means staying around to .52 or .60 engine size, with a span of around 50" to 60" - above that the likely sales would probably be reduced.

They have to be of aircraft that people want, but are not already covered by other makes, so Spits, ME-109, P-51 are out.

They have to be an eye catching prototype that people will want to own

For economy in manufacture there needs to be a core design that will allow some of the base components to be used in multiple models at the expense of some scale fidelity

They have to be good flyers so the the average club flyer can handle them and not re-kit them on the first outing

They have to be capable of flying from less than perfect grass strips, we dont all fly off tarmac or manicured lawns sadly!

It would be nice if the kits lent themselves to being modified from stand-off scale to a more accurate representation if the modeller so wishes (at least to some extent)

Even at stand off scale they have to capture the look of the prototype

Not a simple challenge I fear

[Jon H]

Posted by Dave Hopkin on 26/04/2016 09:54:02:

If we are looking at kits that would sell in quantities of more than one or two we have to stay in the mainstream of modelling. which to me means staying around to .52 or .60 engine size, with a span of around 50" to 60" - above that the likely sales would probably be reduced.

 

 

On the evidence of what i see at clubs and the engines that i sell the most i would say that most people build warbirds in the 60-75'' span bracket with either 70-90 4 stroke or 100-150 as the powerplant ranges for the two sizes.

The warbirds Hurricane is 63 inch (my version anyway!) and my Laser 80 is the perfect fit for it, but any 70-90 4 stroke, or 50-60 2 stroke would also fly it should you so choose to disgrace the model with a two stroke exhaust hanging out

In the case of the whirlwind or similar twin, i would expect it to fly well on 25-40 2 strokes or 30-50 4 strokes. Clearly many folks would do it electric which is fine as well so either model would be well within the realms of a 'club' model.

As for stand off scale being all that was required for models of this type/size I fully agree as my hurricane looks the part now its coming together. Yes i have added a number of details and enhancements, but other than the flaps none of them are difficult or complicated.

Edited By Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 26/04/2016 10:40:31

[will -0]

Posted by Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 26/04/2016 10:39:53:

In the case of the whirlwind or similar twin, i would expect it to fly well on 25-40 2 strokes or 30-50 4 strokes. Clearly many folks would do it electric which is fine as well so either model would be well within the realms of a 'club' model.

Oh noes that'll need a return of the laser 45 then

[IanN]

Posted by RICHARD WILLS on 26/04/2016 09:04:28:

Its a shame more people dont have a go at twins, Its never been better . With the electric motor system from our Spitfire and decent retracts , it really brings some wow factor for reasonable outlay and effort..

Absolutely. I haven't yet, but fully intend to. After all, other than building a couple of nacelles and fitting 2 motors and ESC's instead of one, what's to worry about?

[Stumps]

Hi Jon,

As we've mentioned earlier in this thread ~ that Hurri would really be nice at around 80 inches and a laser 150/180 up front. . back to me day dreaming.

[RICHARD WILLS]

80 inch Hurricane ,? Nice but then why not Mick Reeve or DB Versions ?

[David Davis]

I've been given a part-completed Balsacraft Blenheim to finish off. I'll fit it into all of my other projects!

[Kevin Wilson]

Anything I would suggest is hardly likely to be a seller.

Everyone seems to focus of war machinery whereas I think there are a lot of nice civils out there.

There is a BN Islander thread currently running on this forum and coming along nicely.

Piper Archer, Lockhead Electra or a Beech 18 anyone?

[Nigel Dell]

I guess because it is Warbird Replicas kits that are being talked about, although the Beech 18 and several civis carried warpaint so is not totally out. 

Edited By Nigel Dell on 26/04/2016 13:20:59

[Colin Leighfield]

Looking at the single-engined WW2 fighters as typical of the examples that capture wider interest from the commercial point of view, clearly the model size is a difficult decision. If you are aiming at the typically "foamy", throw it in a car in one-piece kind of thing, you are generally about 1/10 scale. Not bad for a reasonably quick conventional build and reasonably economical in both materials and motor etc.

Around 1/7 is a traditionally popular scale and get you up to the 60/65" or so category. Too big generally to chuck in the car in one piece, but otherwise manageable and cost-effective in terms of build cost motor choices etc.

However, it seems as if the next step up to say 1/6 scale has a disproportionate increase in physical bulk, material cost and motor requirements. Span is going to be probably 70/84" and fuselage will be a lot bulkier. It's a much bigger animal, as well as being a lot more time-consuming and probably costing twice as much to complete?

To me therefore the most cost-effecfive and marketable choice is likely to be a good semi-scale rendition of a well/known fighter, with a simplified approach to building (don't discount foam -wings)? In the 1/7 scale category. I wouldn't totally discount some of the less well-known examples, if they look the part people might be interested anyway. The Dewoitine D520 comes to mind, for example. I can't believe that there wouldn't be interest in the Nakajima Ki84 Hayate, as well as the Hayabusa that was the army equivalent to the Zero. That one actually shot down more allied aircraft than the Zero did and was generally comparable to it in most key respects, more so for example than the Hurricane was to the Spitfire. Maybe it's about time that it got a bit more recognition. 1/7 scale would make it 61"span, a good size for an electric project. The nose is on the short side for c of g purposes, but so is that of an Fw190. It's certainly do-able.

[lightning 759]

Andy ,The 88 will show us how feasible a series of twins would be , The price for a proper kit will be £179 .

great Will be saving the pennies

andy

[Engine Doctor]

How about some EDF kits or would they be prohibitively expensive ?