Guns in Society

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Never owned one, no pearls of wisdom, it's a No to gun ownership from me.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Mike Etheridge 1]

Fortunately I have had little contact with gun owning people. I was once invited to the Edenbridge gun club for a competition having only fired air guns in the Rotunda at Folkestone when I was very young. However I won the 22 competition and got a trophy and prize . When I worked for a local Authority in 1997, I sat next to one chap who won £64,000 on 'Who wants to be a Millionaire' and would have more if he had known the rider of Red Rum on it's third Grand National win. The guy who sat on the other side of me had licensed guns and when his marriage failed he blew his brains out in an upstairs room of his house. Of course this may not have happened if he did not own the guns.

Edited By Mike Etheridge 1 on 25/11/2017 22:05:07

[cymaz]

We can’t put the genie back in the bottle...we can’t un-invent the gun. I don’t see the need of why the ordinary person on the street needs a gun! Thank goodness I don’t live n the US. We have the balance right here...gun clubs that are regulated but people go and enjoy their sport. Farmers regulated so they can control vermin and protect livestock. Police and the armed forces armed to protect us. Isn’t that sufficient for any society?

[Ben B]

Amen Cymaz, got to say I think we've got it pretty spot on. I shoot .22 targets and shoot clays but when I go home I find it reassuring the guns are locked away in the club and my psychotic neighbour isn't going to have easy access. Cos if they did I'd have to keep one at home and suddenly we're living in the US.....

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[PatMc]

Tom, what you say is no doubt true as far as dealing with the aftermath is concerned. However reducing the incidence of suicides is the priority. A large percentage of suicides are carried out almost on impulse using a method that's easily available to the person. The evidence suggests that the longer the time gap between thought & action the less likely the person will attempt suicide & the more likely they will seek help.
This article re a study on the effectiveness of the 1998 Government restrictions on paracetamol sales makes the point. Must admit that I was initially sceptical that the law would have any effect when there's nothing to stop a person visiting several chemists or even shops to stock up before making a suicide attempt but I hadn't considered the effect of the time lapse between thought & action.

Doesn't solve the problem at Crewe I'm afraid.

[Geoff S]

Posted by Robin Colbourne on 25/11/2017 21:04:00:

Finally, its worth remembering that even if you consider yourself only of average intelligence, half the population are less intelligent than you are. Will it make you more comfortable that if they have guns?

Beware of that average thing, Robin and bear in mind that over 99% of the population has over the average number of legs. The average in the house when I was a child was rather less than 2 because dad only had 1 3/4.

As regards owning a gun for protection against 'bad guys'. I'm just glad we live in a society where that simply isn't necessary and only the paranoid think it is.

I used to shoot a lot - air rifles as a kid and 0.22 25 yard target shooting and I was quite good at it (I had the Marksman badge in the school CCF) but it's a pretty boring activity on the whole relying on obsessive attention to the tiniest detail - toy aeroplanes are a lot more fun. I lost my firearms certificate once I stopped being a rifle club member. I did a bit of clay shooting on my uncle's farm nr Doncaser and my cousin (also called Geoff Sleath!) was so good at it that he had to arrive late at clay competitions because if he didn't there weren't many entrants and hence no money in the pot. Either he or his pal would always win

Geoff

[Ian Jones]

Posted by Tom Sharp 2 on 25/11/2017 22:58:50:

A post above mentions people blowing their brains out with guns.

My brother in law is an undertaker in the Crewe, Cheshire area. Crewe is a major rail junction and people jumping in front of trains is a regular occurrence. According to my brother in law, cleaning up body parts from half a mile of track is not a pleasant experience.

Suicide with a gun would seem to make it much more simple for those that have to deal with the clean up.

Yes it's very unpleasant indeed but bullets can be quite messy too, as for shotguns Tom, you should see the mess they make at close quarters, bits all over the place. I was just about to describe it but thought I'd better not.

[Ian Jones]

Posted by Tony Harrison 2 on 25/11/2017 13:56:49:

Posted by stu knowles on 25/11/2017 13:13:52:

Maybe in the UK the point is that the box lid is kept closed.

That box lid is only closed to the law abiding, and has never had any discernible impact on criminals - as I've already pointed out, a short look at the stats shows that (a) gun crime pre-WW1 when we had practically no real restraints on gun ownership was at lower levels than today (yes, allowing for the fact that our population was half today's), and (b) as gun laws have become ever more restrictive (i.e. continually bigger & tighter "box lids", so gun crime has simply grown in parallel. Gun laws and gun crime are not connected: criminals do not obey laws - that's why they're criminals. They certainly don't obey gun laws. Why would they?

rgds Tony

"Gun laws and gun crime are not connected: criminals do not obey laws - that's why they're criminals. They certainly don't obey gun laws. Why would they?"

Shot yourself in the foot with that one Tony! If there were no guns then no law would be required and there'd be no opportunity for criminials and others to misuse them (remember the opening post for example).

Furthermore your reasoning will not help anyone that has been injured or killed through the use of fireaerms whether lawfully held or not.

The self protection or protection of ones home is poor argument as it's just not possible for you to produce statistics that show a high enough percentage of home owners are at risk of being faced by criminals with firearms to justify that stance. What's shown in the bias of the arguments you put forward are that they are more political motivated than reasonable protection the average person.

[cymaz]

Because the Uk has such good gun laws ,is that why knife crime and acid attacks have increased ? . .?

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Isn't it the case that the more likely a criminal is to face a gun, the more likely they are going to take one with them? That's always been the argument used by those opposed to routinely arming police officers. Why has knife crime become so prolific? One major reason is that young people in many areas feel the need to carry knives for protection against other knife carriers. Sadly, while knives tend to keep damage between protagonists or intended targets, a stray bullet can easily kill an innocent passer by.

[Andy48]

Posted by cymaz on 26/11/2017 05:53:19:

Because the Uk has such good gun laws ,is that why knife crime and acid attacks have increased ? . .?

I suspect it has more to do with the drugs scene, and the effects of drugs.

[Tony Harrison 2]

Posted by Percy Verance on 25/11/2017 18:42:52:

Sums it up rather well I'd say.......

And oddly enough Tony, a society where anyone who fancies owning a gun or two dozen can simply acquire one/them. That doesn't appear to go too swimmingly either does it?

I simply can't agree with your argument or the points you put forward. I'm sorry, but it even makes me feel uneasy to read what you type...

Are you agreeing with Stu, PV? Pity! I don't wish to swap England for the USA, since I'm very attached to England, study its history, think of myself as being very English (with bits of Welsh) - and more to the point, you appear to neglect the points I've made to a couple of folk here about England pre-WW1 when my country was in your words, "a society where anyone who fancies owning a gun or two dozen [could] simply acquire one/them". It was not without violence - in some ways there was rather a lot, mainly in the cities - but it wasn't gun violence, which was comparatively scarce, less common than it is today following a series of increasingly restrictive Firearms Acts. A liberal attitude to firearms went "swimmingly" for my grandparents' generation, when folk seem to have had a more balanced, mature, common sense attitude to guns.

So thanks, but I'm not prepared to be kicked off to the USA (which I've visited, plus I've been hunting in Canada several times) simply because I do not share the officially propagandised PC meme that guns are bad. Pity you don't accept my arguments, but I trust this does not mean you reject my explanations about the original 1920 Act, or pre-WW1 gun violence, etc? I'm happy to provide some solid references on request. If anything I've written makes you feel uneasy, you really should get out more, flying or otherwise! Possibly have a stiff Scotch as well.

rgds Tony

[Tony Harrison 2]

Posted by Don Fry on 25/11/2017 19:17:32:

Sorry Tony, my background is as a shooter....

Society has a right to irrational laws between evils

Don, glad to hear about your long experience of shooting, but I suggest politely that you check the meaning of "evil", and re-think that business about "irrational laws": it is the absolute duty of lawmakers to ensure that laws are rational, just, and efficacious - not the opposite. As well as spending most of my life shooting, I've been interested for decades in firearms legislation; it repays study since it's very instructive. I'll just say that to the best of my knowledge there is no evidence - that's substantive, real evidence, not feelings or hearsay or emotional reactions - that our succession of Firearms Acts has had any beneficial or palliative effect on UK gun crime.

rgds Tony

[Tony Harrison 2]

Posted by Andy48 on 25/11/2017 19:20:28:

I think guns are evil.

Andy, I suggest firmly that you check the definition of "evil" and re-think your opinion.

rgds Tony

[Tony Harrison 2]

Posted by Tim Kearsley on 25/11/2017 20:01:19:

I find it very disturbing that anyone thinks a valid reason for owning a firearm is self-defence

Why?

rgds Tony

[Tony Harrison 2]

Posted by Ian Jones on 26/11/2017 00:59:07:

"Gun laws and gun crime are not connected: criminals do not obey laws - that's why they're criminals. They certainly don't obey gun laws. Why would they?"

Shot yourself in the foot with that one Tony! If there were no guns then no law would be required and there'd be no opportunity for criminials and others to misuse them (remember the opening post for example).

The self protection or protection of ones home is poor argument as it's just not possible for you to produce statistics that show a high enough percentage of home owners are at risk of being faced by criminals with firearms to justify that stance.

Ian, 1: I'm struggling to get my head around what you wrote! I genuinely have no idea what you're saying. No guns? There are lots of guns, been the case since the Middle Ages, always will be. Laws banning their ownership do not work - even in Japan, possibly the strictest anti-gun country in the world, gangsters have guns. Nothing will ever stop this. Gun laws affect only the law-abiding. Etc...

2. It has nothing to do with statistics, but with a free citizen's perception that he might potentially, one day, in certain circumstances, be at risk from criminal attack - and decides to arm himself accordingly. It's a wholly traditional right, and a basic function in a free society. Criminals with firearms? Why should that be the deciding factor? What about the little old lady in a high-crime area, faced with street thugs armed with knives or baseball bats? What about the guy I know who lived for a time in Florida and was held up at knifepoint while using an ATM? He drew his licenced concealed-carry handgun and stuck it in the perp's nostrils - the creep ran away... That sort of thing happens here as well, maybe not to you but crime affects many decent people.

rgds Tony

[Don Fry]

But Tony, if you think there is much connection between law and rationality, you have not studied law.

Examine the punishment between misuse of a firearm and shooting someone, and misuse of a car and killing someone, and I challenge you to give a rational explanation.

Politicians perceivie a greater willingness in their voters to accept death by car, because stopping the problem effects their use of cars. So the law remains irrational on the subject.

I accept a correction as to evil, substitute another word meaning bad things, bad outcomes, misguided inventions with bad consequences.

[Pete B]

What really worries me, Tony, is that you seem to think that it's a good idea - and a 'human right' - for you to be able to carry a gun for self-protection. Does that apply just to you - or can everyone have one?

I have been involved in firearms licensing in years gone by and I have to say that attitude would have raised an eyebrow or two when it came to deciding whether the applicant was considered suitable to hold a certificate...

Pete

[Don Fry]

And going back to the original post, where a fool, at night, opens up with a firearm, at long range, at a target he can't see, with no knowlege do what is behind the target. I think, living in the police state known as the United Kingdom, is preferable.

[Former Member]

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[Tony Bennett]

in a previous post it was mentioned that a chap was held up by a knife welding thug at a cash point.

so the chap pulled out his hidden gun and scared off the attacker.

fair enough.

but now the attackers knife has been  swapped for a gun because of this and the next time the thug mugs someone at a cash point, he puts his newly acquired gun in the victims back.

now just in case the victim has a gun and might shoot him as he runs away, the thug pulls the trigger and kills his victim.

so by owning a gun the first victim escalated the next attack from a mugging to a murder.

 

Edited By Tony Bennett on 26/11/2017 13:19:42

Edited By Tony Bennett on 26/11/2017 13:43:12

[Andy48]

Posted by Tony Harrison 2 on 26/11/2017 10:21:20:

Posted by Andy48 on 25/11/2017 19:20:28:

I think guns are evil.

Andy, I suggest firmly that you check the definition of "evil" and re-think your opinion.

rgds Tony

Patronising to say the least.