pete taylor Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 Friends, please be aware of a potential scam that popped up for me today. It's an old modus operandi whereby the supposed buyer agrees a price, sends a cheque to cover everything plus some. You give the goods to the pre-arranged courier once said cheque has apparently cleared only to have it bounce a few days later... I'm sure we've all heard of it. Correspondence below. Apologies to Mr D Mann if he's legit, but asking for pictures and a price when the ad quite clearly has both isn't a great start! Vigilanti semper! Hi, Glad to hear from you.This sounds good and it's like we can come to an agreement,so keep the ad off market and consider sold to me.I am okay with the price £100,your details is needed for payment to be issued out to you via post,in which reputable courier will handle the shipment. So do not worry about that OKAY.An excess money we be included on the check payment which would cover both the item bought and for the pick-up okay.All you need to do,Once the cheque clears in 3 working days,you are to deduct your payment,afterward the remaining funds in-cures shipping for the pick up at your location... I will send the shipping agent details when the payment clears. Get back to me with your details as requested below: Full name... Residential address... Cell Phone number... Home Phone number... I will await to hear from you with regard this as soon as possible. Thank You. On 12/10/17, Peter Taylor wrote: > Hi, the asking price is as advertised £100. I'll take pictures of the box > contents asap, but it's a complete unbuilt kit. > > Cheers, Pete > > On 10 Dec 2017 09:19, "Mrd mann" <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Send pictures with your asking price. >> > Edited By pete taylor on 10/12/2017 13:21:05 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Miller Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 Hi Peter. THis is a very old one and has been reported on at least one other thread. Many years ago I contacted the police about iot and was told that a local man got done for £5000 over it. The trouble is that the bank draft/cheque bounces after 6 months and you have tio pay the bank back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piers Bowlan Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 Yes, looks like a scam Pete but I would remove your email address from the post while you can- it will only attract more scammers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete taylor Posted December 10, 2017 Author Share Posted December 10, 2017 Hi Dusty, I agree. The first time I came across is must have been 10 years or so ago when a friend was selling a car on another perfectly respectable website. They even got on the phone to explain how reasonable it was to ship a Land Rover to Senegal! Mr D Mann is, needless to say on my blocked list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete taylor Posted December 10, 2017 Author Share Posted December 10, 2017 Thanks for the heads up Piers. All done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Lomax Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 As BMFA Classifieds is restricted to members, I suggest that you email webmaster <at> bmfaclassifieds <dot> org with the details and he can check out / block this user. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Crook Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 Yes, on the one occasion I've attempted a sale via the BMFA someone attempted to scam me in this way. I pulled it and sold the model at Wings and Wheels instead. My son has sold several models with no problem, but his ads insist buyer collects, cash paid on collection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 Posted by Peter Miller on 10/12/2017 12:53:49: The trouble is that the bank draft/cheque bounces after 6 months and you have tio pay the bank back. Peter - you've made this assertion before. I've cut and pasted my response to you then: "The cheque clearing regs were changed on 30/11/2007 and introduced "certainty of fate", i.e. after 6 days, the money is yours, even if it is subsequently found that the cheque drawer has insufficient funds or the cheque is fraudulent. The same applies to drafts and a bank will only issue a draft (i.e. a money order in its own name) if you have the cleared funds to cover it. So a draft cleared after 6 days remains cleared. If, after 6 working days, it is found that the funds backing a draft are 'hookey', then the drawer has the problem, not you, as the funds are cleared to your account. The ONLY time you will be liable is if it is proved that you are party to said fraud..." Try googling "cheques and certainty of fate" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Miller Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Interesting MIke but it does raise a few questions in my mind. If this change came about in 2007 how come the scammers are still using it? Are they that THICK? If the scammers do know about this how is the same scam working now? To put all our minds at rest perhaps you could explain the second point. I mean, could it be that the bank drafts that they send out are forgeries that have never been issued by a bank and if so wouldn't a bank know instantly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel R Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Might be that under a certain cash value, the cheques are simply put through without delay, so it works for £100 but not £1000? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel R Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 A quick google shows: "A cheque or draft issued in foreign currency and payable at a foreign bank to beneficiaries in Britain has to be sent abroad to the bank from which it was drawn. The clearing can take several weeks. This draft was being processed on a “collection” basis. This means that the bank will credit the customer’s account but can still reclaim the money if the payment bounces. This will have been explained in the leaflet you received." So a dodgy cheque from a foreign bank gives more time to work the scam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Miller Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 But surely MIke T can't be wrong?!!!? He asserts that after 6 days the bank has to collect from the sender but this sound more like my original remark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel R Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Perhaps the scammers can only now use money orders or bank drafts, rather than personal cheques? I'm only guessing though, we need a bank to answer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Watkins Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 A cheque as we know is a piece of paper. During the day they are put into a pile within the bank Everyone dreads getting the job, and they are dealt with at the end of the day By definition, they have to be read and processed by hand In modern terms they are a nightmare to deal with and moves are made on a regular basis to phase them out The chances of a transcript error are huge during processing This accounts for the number of days required for clearing Add to this "abroad" and a virtual abyss is formed Just take care Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpy1071 Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 I had this about 14 days ago complete scam. Same name and very similar approach. Ignore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Engine Doctor Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Very common scam and a quick read is a good indication that it's from aboard. The BMFA classifieds advise you not to put contact details on your add. Response to adds are through the site via contact seller . Still not fool proof but it puts most thieves/ scammers /scumbags off. Could it be added to this site's classifieds ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John F Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Posted by Peter Miller on 12/12/2017 08:47:09: Interesting MIke but it does raise a few questions in my mind. If this change came about in 2007 how come the scammers are still using it? Are they that THICK? If the scammers do know about this how is the same scam working now? The scam still works and works so well it is still one of the biggest online sales fraud going and is on the rise. The scammers are not dumb, they are preying on us to be dumb and it still works! https://www.security-institute.org/advice/pdf_uploads_for_advise/01.05.16_nfib_counter_cheque_fraud Edited By John F on 12/12/2017 10:15:53 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete B Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Posted by Engine Doctor on 12/12/2017 10:05:24: Very common scam and a quick read is a good indication that it's from aboard. The BMFA classifieds advise you not to put contact details on your add. Response to adds are through the site via contact seller . Still not fool proof but it puts most thieves/ scammers /scumbags off. Could it be added to this site's classifieds ? We dealt with 'Mr Mann' a couple of weeks ago. ED, we do have the same system - only registered members can respond to an ad by clicking on the 'Send Mail' link. This breaks down if the seller puts their email address in the text of the ad, of course - not that many do. We do our best to filter out dodgy-looking sign-ups but inevitably the occasional one may get through. All I can say is Caveat Venditor! Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Posted by Peter Miller on 12/12/2017 09:16:06: But surely MIke T can't be wrong?!!!? He asserts that after 6 days the bank has to collect from the sender but this sound more like my original remark. It's not been unknown (but recorded instances are vanishingly rare...) I'm not asserting anything; just quoting the change to the banking regs implemented by the OFT in November 2007. Nigel R is right in that the 6 day timescale does not apply to foreign currency cheques, so think twice before deciding to help that nice Nigerian prince get his hands on the family simoleons... If the cheque/draft is drawn on a UK bank and paid into a UK bank a/c, then there should be no problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John F Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Posted by Mike T on 12/12/2017 16:14:20 It's not been unknown (but recorded instances are vanishingly rare...) I'm not asserting anything; just quoting the change to the banking regs implemented by the OFT in November 2007. Nigel R is right in that the 6 day timescale does not apply to foreign currency cheques, so think twice before deciding to help that nice Nigerian prince get his hands on the family simoleons... If the cheque/draft is drawn on a UK bank and paid into a UK bank a/c, then there should be no problem. Sorry but that is not correct. Cheque scams from any bank, any nationality including the UK, is still going on. It is the most common kind of fraud. Don't be lured into come kind of false sense of security that if it is a UK cheque it is OK. It is not. **LINK** **LINK** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaL Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Posted by John F on 13/12/2017 10:12:36: Posted by Mike T on 12/12/2017 16:14:20 It's not been unknown (but recorded instances are vanishingly rare...) I'm not asserting anything; just quoting the change to the banking regs implemented by the OFT in November 2007. Nigel R is right in that the 6 day timescale does not apply to foreign currency cheques, so think twice before deciding to help that nice Nigerian prince get his hands on the family simoleons... If the cheque/draft is drawn on a UK bank and paid into a UK bank a/c, then there should be no problem. Sorry but that is not correct. Cheque scams from any bank, any nationality including the UK, is still going on. It is the most common kind of fraud. Don't be lured into come kind of false sense of security that if it is a UK cheque it is OK. It is not. **LINK** **LINK** John F - If you read the text from the link you provided you will find What happens if a cheque is found to be fraudulent AFTER the end of the sixth working day after I have paid in my cheque? You are protected and can keep the funds from the cheque provided you are not a knowing party to fraud or have been negligent in some way and have kept to the terms and conditions of your account. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Posted by John F on 13/12/2017 10:12:36: Sorry but that is not correct. Yes, it is. Both your links confirm it (as MaL points out) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John F Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 No, I am saying this from experience. You have been lured into a false sense of security! I posted the links to show how prevalent cheque fraud still is! Like I said, it may well state: "You are protected and can keep the funds from the cheque provided you are not a knowing party to fraud or have been negligent in some way and have kept to the terms and conditions of your account." My GP surgery, where I am Deputy Practice Manager, presented a cheque for £700 from a company who we did insurance medical work for. It bounced. We were deemed to have no protection from the loss by the bank and therefore cannot claim a single penny! The Senior Partner has written a complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service but does not remain hopeful as the accountants have stated that they see this happen a couple of times each year with their clients, stating that on paper it looks lovely and warming - in reality it hardly ever works the way in which they say it does! The company that owes the money has since changed branding and claims to be a different company, which is another trick they use as you can't touch the new company even with a court order! As I say, it goes on all the time and is very common and you're not as protected as you might think. Edited By John F on 15/12/2017 09:39:36 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 The question to ask here is when did the £700 cheque bounce? As far as I can see, the assurance is that although a cheque can be bounced for numerous reasons, it has to be within 6 days and after that, should a bank detect a problem they bear any loss. It might also be the case that business accounts are subject to different rules? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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